To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

MN won't give us their definition either. Because if they do it becomes set in stone, a stick with which to beat posters with, to stifle debate. They have, if I remember rightly, said they will take it on a case by case basis so as to allow debate.

Would you want to shut that down?

If so, why?

OP please don't use the word cis if you can think of an alternative - it is offensive to many.
BuffyChiro you say a transwoman should obviously be allowed to use the female toilets as they are a woman. I know this is an example often used but it bears repeating - here is a well-known transwoman. You want all women to have to share changing rooms and toilets with her?

I am baffled at the blatant sexism, homophobia and gender stereotyping that is taking root at the moment. I am upset that men cannot express themselves in a feminine way without having to change their sex, it's so backward, wear a dress if you want to.

I also find that taking away the rights of girls and women is really disturbing.

Toot's "woman" there currently resides (or at least did until recently) in a female only refuge.
Yep.

if you're assigned male at birth, you'll always be a man in a frock, no matter what, and aren't really happy with any level of acceptance for trans women beyond 'we shouldn't actually throw rocks at them'. A reasonable, if strong, reaction to stories, platforming, to change the language of femaleness, at the perceived expense of females and natural female behaviours!

CIS me not, in other words!

Trans women should be allowed access to women's spaces because they are women. Your gender identity is not more valid because you happen to have been born with female sex organs.

FFS.

What is a woman? What makes someone a woman?

Toot thats a transMAN, isn't it? A female to male transition. The opposite of what the pp was talking about, which was a transwoman, who would look like a woman and who of course should use a womans bathroom if they want.

Trifleorbust Your post implies that transgenderism is a mental health issue.
That is considered deeply transphobic and erasing by the transmovement.

There isn't much that isn't considered transphobic. I've lost count of the times I've seen posters on here express concern at what they feel is transphobia on MN, only to then go on themselves to post something that is considered to be transphobic.

It isn't transphobic to defend born women and their right to safe spaces.

It's misogynistic to insist that these are shared with people with penises.

HTH.

Btw, people are born with genitals not gender.
Sex is determined by genetics, not assigned, and it's expressed as sex organs.
It's humans who atribute gender stereotypes from birth.

I find this deeply upsetting and troubling.

I am not a bigot. I am not transphobic. I want people to be happy in their own skin, to feel validated and safe.

I want to accept people for who and what they are.

I have never seen anything transphobic on MN.

And for the people saying that people experiencing gender dysphoria are vulnerable and in need of our protection and consideration yes! Of course they are. They need lots of support and counselling - and if being called 'she' and wearing a dress helps someone then I will call her 'she' and fight for her right to wear dresses! It is a terrible affliction to feel so at odds with yourself. The problem is that, actually, I am being 'bigoted' here for even suggesting that it is a mental health issue. Because I am supposed to accept it as a biological reality, apparently. Or I am a hater.

As a larger ideology, it is a real problem - and it doesn't take too much thinking about before the problems start to become obvious.

In order to legislate for the suffering minority, we are having to redefine all sorts of other categories of people.

I could argue that people who insist that anyone can be a man or a woman because they say they are (and that is what the legislation changes going through parliament at the moment are aiming for) then what is a gay man? What is a lesbian? What is a woman?

Gay rights have been hard won and long fought. And if these changes to gender identity legislation go through then they are effectively erased.

How can you define as a biological woman who is sexually attracted to biological women if some biological men are also women?

To ask for clarity and thinking things through to the end is bigoted then I will be a bigot. And I'm not sorry.

I hate NO ONE. Never have. Never will.

over a cis woman

WHY are you so ready to accepted a bs label you haven't chosen?

This utterly baffles me.

The amount of trans groupies there are.

For every extreme trans activist there seem to be a dozen women fawning around and hanging on their every word.

NOT the same as being accepting of difference and wanting peace and love.

Its weird and unsettling. 'Yes, yes PLEASE tell me how to woman, give me tips on make up and how to walk in heels, you will be my bestie trans friend if you will have me'.

WTF is all that about?

Your gender identity is not more valid because you happen to have been born with female sex organs.

At the risk of being told I'm transphobic, I couldn't disagree more with this. I am a woman because I have female sex organs. I don't wear makeup and I have little interest in hair, clothes and so forth. Pink is way down my list of favourite colours. But I experienced what it was to go through puberty and have my body change from a child's to a woman's, and how society reacted to that. I've experienced sexism of various types all through my life, as must just about every other woman on the planet. I have decades of menstruation behind me and am now perimenopausal. I gave birth to two children and spent a couple of years breastfeeding. These are all experiences that are absolutely crucial to my sense of self. No one born with male sex organs can know what any of those felt like.

I have every sympathy with those who are not comfortable with the stereotypes for their biological sex. If they want to change their names and the way they dress and be identified as the opposite sex, that is their prerogative, although it does create various issues for the rest of society that need to be sorted out. But it is a nonsense to say that that makes them into a woman or a man. Even after surgery/drug treatment, that won't be the case. The chromosomes will never be changed.

We know it's just a few extremist transactivists that are causing the problems but they are getting laws and policies changed to the detriment of women, children and ordinary trans people.

It would be great if people who call some discussions on MN 'transphobic' could engage with specific points. I understand why they don't though. As soon as you start to think through any aspect of the transactivists' position the whole thing unravels into illogical doublethink. Most of us here have been through this process and it's incredibly uncomfortable, especially for those of us who are on the liberal left for most issues, to realise that we can no longer in good faith support the transagenda.

The number of threads about this is testament to the speed with which things are changing. We need to wake up and speak up before it's too late.

By the way OP, careful conflating mental health issues with trans, that's considered terribly transphobic.

Many of us here reject the term "cis" and find it offensive, please don't use it here.

We are now in a situation where the following statement is controversial...

Penis = male
Vagina = female

I feel like I've wandered into a parallel universe...

In what sense is that person a woman? The pic explains nothing at all.

They have the genitals, sex hormones, appearance and priviledge of a man, but feel like a woman?
And if women have any kind of problem with this WE are transphobic?

Beyond fucked up.

I find myself really surprised with how I line up on this issue. I am generally tolerant, accepting, and support individuals against the general bigotry of society. However, on this issue I have to stand up for the rights of an oppressed minority, against the people who are trying to erode them. As a woman, I am not happy to be told that I cannot refer to myself as a woman, that my biology is not relevant to my identity, that I cannot live my life as a woman. To see language referring to women being eroded as it does not refer correctly to trans women. To be told not to wear pussy hats to a march about women's safety, to be told I can't object to men playing sport women's teams, that men can won awards and grants aimed at women. I have never seen any post denying trans people the right to live as they wish, as long as it doesn't involve denying other women their hard fought for rights. If boys who like girly stuff and play with dolls are girls, then where does that leave our girls who wear dungarees and like dinosaurs?

I was you, a year or so ago. Now I am not. Please check whether what you interpret as transphobia is in fact just a rational attempt to clarify the issues.

The only thing female about Danielle Muscato is the name. He is the poster boy for all that is aggressive and intolerant for both sides of this debate.

He is a man who likes looking like a man, dressing as a stereotypical man, yet wants to be seen as a woman, accorded any and all female rights and protections.

His explanation is simply saying that if you don't agree with him you are a bigot!

If that is the case then every human being on the planet is (OK we all are anyway) as seeing a person dressed and bearded like that you see 'a man!' - the kind of man transmen aspire to look like, so they will be male enough!

Argh! I am blathering now. But I find Ms. Muscato's spiel offensive. Call me what you will!

I don't like transphobia. Just as I don't like racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination.

What concerns me though, is that there appears to be a determined core of activists who are extremely uncomfortable with any debate or discussion about trans issues and what they mean in relation to feminism and women's rights. I have seen many conversations where any dissent or questioning is deemed to be transphobic as a mechanism to shut the discussion down if you disagree with the prevailing views. I can understand why some feminist activists feel like this is an example of male privilege being extended into women's issues.

I personally dislike being referred to as 'Cis'. I didn't ask for a label and so find it rather offensive to be tagged with one; a perspective which some activists seem unwilling to accept or even explore any further. I am a woman.

I really hope that some of the divisiveness that we have seen can be overcome. The trans movement has gained traction and is still really in its infancy. I think it's great that it is being recognised in mainstream conversations (councils, schools, general politics), because it is so sad that there is such a high prevalence of MH issues in the trans community. However I think there is some careful balancing which is still being worked out; one group's rights should not trump another's.