To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

CoteD as I previously mentioned dismissing intersex as 'disorders' and 'not normal' is considered offensive.

I mention this as a FYI as I only discovered this today.

Bev I'm not suggesting anything I am reporting the findings of an eminent scientist who was written widely on these matters.

Sex can be much more complicated than it at first seems. According to the simple scenario, the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is what counts: with it, you are male, and without it, you are female. But doctors have long known that some people straddle the boundary — their sex chromosomes say one thing, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) or sexual anatomy say another. Parents of children with these kinds of conditions — known as intersex conditions, or differences or disorders of sex development (DSDs) — often face difficult decisions about whether to bring up their child as a boy or a girl. Some researchers now say that as many as 1 person in 100 has some form of DSD2

www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

I found this ^ study made interesting reading.

I fully understand that but the concept of intersex is relevant because posters insist there are only 2 sexes. When there is evidence to suggest otherwise

You could be bringing us ground breaking news of 50 sexes discovered yesterday, and it still wouldn't be relevant to this conversation which is about people with male bodies identifying as one particular sex -female - and the effect that has on people with female bodies.

Interesting, yes. Mostly bollocks, also yes. And with an obvious agenda, definitely yes.

Biologically, to be called a "sex" it has to have a role in reproduction.
Intersex means there's no sex as such. So, no, not a third sex. That would mean a completely different thing: that this third sex could reproduce with at least one of the others.

Merry indeed you are correct, the idea of a third sex even if proved with the addition of 8 other sexes isn't relevant. That being the case why does everyone on these trans threads bang on about it like it is a matter of faith?

Theonlyliving the link is from an article in Nature, as far as I am aware this is a well respected, if populist, scientific publication.

Have you read it yet?

I don't know, why are you 'banging on' about the possible existence of a third sex?

Aristotle?! I have no words.

Off to ponder how ancient philosophy trumps modern fucking biology....

Straddling a boundary =/= third sex.

I looked up Milton Diamond. He said this:

We have also gained a heightened awareness of the psychological harm that results when intersex conditions are pathologized. Although we are now more sensitive to the damage that might inadvertently be caused by characterizing individuals as medical conditions rather than as people, no consensus has emerged as to how to ameliorate the harm. A consortium of concerned professionals decided that, in order to reduce the stigmatization that frequently accompanies intersex conditions, the nomenclature used in such cases should be altered. The consortium suggested that the term “disorder of sex development” should be substituted for “intersex” and for “intersex conditions”;10 however, other parties have suggested that this terminology is no less stigmatizing than many other terms that have been offered, such as “defective differentiation of the genital system” or “sex errors”. The largest intersex support group in the world—Organisation Intersex International—considers such terms negative, supports the use of nonstigmatizing expressions such as “variety of sex development”, and would probably support the term “differences of sex development”, which we now prefer. These terms acknowledge the variations inherent in intersex conditions, but also respect the notion that individuals are being portrayed rather than just medical disorders. Affected individuals seek recognition of their personhood and eschew labels of defect, disorder, or disadvantage. They recognize that parents, psychologists, counselors, and other individuals who might also use the term agreed upon would bridle at any designated term that could be construed as demeaning.

I'm not reading 'third sex' here, I'm reading 'be kind, be respectful'.

Yes, hence the comment.

Chimerism as evidence of non-binary sex classification? Utter bullshit. A few interesting points but a terrible and entirely unfounded conclusion.

why does everyone on these trans threads bang on about it like it is a matter of faith?

maybe because of petulant whining and obvious derailing by people claiming sex is a spectrum and there are loads of sexes and using this as 'proof' that women can do one and linking articles that they clearly haven't read and/or don't understand.

Bev I have no need to divert anything. I am educating myself on this issue on topic at a time. The two sex argument is prominent on many threads so I have considered it. I find it wanting and modern science seems to have moved on.
Generally, it does NOT seem to have much relevance to trans issues so I am puzzled as to why it is given so much prominence. Change of sex is the key issue I think not how many sexes there are.

"CoteD as I previously mentioned dismissing intersex as 'disorders' and 'not normal' is considered offensive."

It's not "dismissing" and they are disorders. Use the word "condition" if "disorder" offends your sensibilities. Considered offensive by whom? Not by the Intersex Society of North America who say the following in their website:

Intersex conditions

The following is a list of disorders of sex development that sometimes involve intersex anatomy.

5-alpha reductase deficiency
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS)
Aphallia
Clitoromegaly (large clitoris)
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH)
gonadal dysgenesis (partial & complete)
hypospadias
I have a line along the underside of my penis
Klinefelter Syndrome
micropenis
mosaicism involving "sex" chromosomes
MRKH (Mullerian agenesis; vaginal agenesis; congenital absence of vagina)
ovo-testes (formerly called "true hermaphroditism")
Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (PAIS)
Progestin Induced Virilization
Swyer Syndrome
Turner Syndrome

If you do not realise that the above are disorders (or conditions, if you prefer) that are NOT part of normal human development, then you need some basic knowledge before you can build on that base and talk about "basic logic".

petulant whining and obvious derailing

You know for a while there no body had insulted anyone I was starting to miss it

Bitof seems unaware that any such agenda exists. I guess she didn't find that out in her five minute google "research".

Wouldn't want to disappoint you.

If you do not realise that the above are disorders (or conditions, if you prefer) that are NOT part of normal human development, then you need some basic knowledge before you can build on that base and talk about "basic logic"

It wasn't me who made the " basic logic' comment.

I am passing on the opinions of scientists it is not me who said they are variants not disorders. My knowledge is indeed limited please feel free to insult it. I don't think the eminent biologist who I reference had limited knowledge.

The Intersex Society of North America's statement on the difference between intersex and transgender is here if anyone is interested www.isna.org/faq/transgender and its explanation for why it is using the term DSDs is here www.isna.org/. I have also read, but can't remember where, that some people with intersex prefer the term dsd because they think the more medicalised it may help stop their vocabulary and issues being misappropriated and garbled.

Making us scared to help each other and ourselves is far more trans phobic than anything that has ever been written on here IMO (not that I've actually seen anything trans phobic on here unless I missed it).

Tumble, thank you for posting. This made me so sad.

The two sex argument is prominent on many threads so I have considered it. I find it wanting and modern science seems to have moved on

It's prominent because it is actual fact. Modern science has categorically not moved on, because this biological fact has always been true and science knows that.