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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

707 replies

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 10:29

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

OP posts:
GreyHare · 28/02/2017 11:53

The thing lots of people also seem to be missing is that it's not just the baby that will be at risk, not that I have had children so not sure how often they come but don't you have an influx of health visitors and the like in the first few months plus friends and relatives that come a calling to coo over baby, all these visits will put extra unnecessary and unneeded stress both on the dog and Lemondrops.

Benedikte2 · 28/02/2017 12:11

You have all my sympathy OP however I do not see any other choice but euthanasia. Your dog is large breed so his natural life span is probably now quite short. There may be the added complication of dementia with old age which means more unpredictability and fear on his part if confused with consequent aggressive reaction. Do not think of it as "killing" him but protecting him from future harm. By passing him on to a rescue centre you will almost certainly be delegating the decision to someone else. Why not have the vet come to your home (presumably your dog knows and trusts the vet) to give him the injection and let him pass away in comfort in his own home? Life at any cost is not always the best decision for either our loved pets or family members. ( Not advocating doing away with random non consenting relatives, by the way)

Vermillioncomfyshoes · 28/02/2017 12:22

Good point GreyHare

But the most unlikely possibility I find about the plan is..

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings?

Especially in the first few months, there is no day or night - everything melds into one long round of nappies, feeding, burping, settling, grabbing a cup of tea an a sandwich before it all starts over again. New babies don't disappear upstairs at 7pm and reappear in the morning. They are a 24 hour job with relentless and unpredictable demands.
My first fed every 2/3 hours for the first month or so. The inbetween times were to grab a nap or a shower or some food or put on a wash. That improved, but none of my babies ever settled until last feed at around 11pm - and even then awake again at 5am for another feed.
So I think it's unrealistic that the evening can be factored in as dog-time.

Strygil · 28/02/2017 12:36

You have given this dog a loving home for eight years, going to extraordinary [in all senses of that word] lengths to make him happy. But now you have to choose between his welfare and that of a child - and we all know that that is no choice at all. It will hurt like hell in the short term, but you should have him put down. I sense that you know that this is the right thing to do. All good wishes.

Nancy91 · 28/02/2017 13:00

We have only heard a small amount of information about the dog. Nobody has so much as seen a picture of the dog, yet some posters seem to be imagining a blood thirsty monster rather than the OPs pet and companion of many years. I bet the dog has his own unique personality, good traits and loving moments too. This isn't the no-brainer decision some people are making it out to be.

OP, perhaps you could ask for advice on a dog owners forum. There are many owners of fear aggressive dogs who will be able to help you.

Also, your dog may not even be interested in your baby. You could use positive reinforcement (sausages!) so that your dog associates your baby's presence with good things. You are working with fear aggression, so you need to make sure the dog is not feeling threatened by the baby and in time he will get used to it Smile

Porpo · 28/02/2017 13:16

Hi

We've had a rescue german shepherd that was as bad as you describe and currently have a big guarding/herding type dog that's not the best behaved (despite lots of training). I'd say you know the dog the best, do lots of training now before the baby comes and I've heard people suggest getting it ready by letting it see and smell the new things. Do not EVER leave dog and baby alone together and use a muzzle if you're worried. Don't take chances but I would give the dog a chance. It's likely to recognise it as an extension to the family.

knittingwithnettles · 28/02/2017 13:25

SIL felt the same about her dog(s). Dog(s) have been fine with the kids. Small anxious bad tempered terrier type, very neurotic and attached to adult, not good with other dogs. I think at this stage in pregnancy when you are ill and anxious it doesn't seem possible that it will work (SIL said she fixated on idea that dogs would eat the children) It worked out. Also they were outside a lot as a result of the essential dogwalking, and I'm sure that was good for everyone's mental health, including the kids. Dogwalker is definitely an option. Why not investigate a bit of dogwalking first before you make your final decision. Dogs smell that your baby is part of you, and adjust to it in some situations, accordingly.

Fingalswave · 28/02/2017 13:32

Knitting I would hold the same view in these sorts of situations generally. But this is not a small terrier, its a large guard dog cross breed, 40 kg, that lunges without warning. It has to be muzzled and restrained whilst out walking; it wouldn't be able to be walked with a pram and children. And if I remember correctly, the op has already tried dog-walkers without success.

harrietm87 · 28/02/2017 13:35

nancy the OP has described it as a very large dog with an enhanced prey instinct that lunges without warning. The OP and her DH find walking it stressful because of the potential of its aggression. It gets impatient when it doesn't get what it wants. The OPs DH doesn't like looking after it alone. Isn't that enough for you? Would you let your baby live with a dog like this?

prettywhiteguitar · 28/02/2017 13:39

When my ds was 6 months old I was so sleep deprived I drove past ikea 4 times. People make mistakes, it will be a very stressful time for you with your first baby and having your dog there will be very stressful and dangerous.

As someone has mentioned before you have kept a dog which could have been a danger to others, dogs and children, which has been managed by you very well. But you have another all consuming life coming up that needs you and unless your husband is totally on board I really don't think it's fair on him or your new baby to keep your dog.

fenneltea · 28/02/2017 13:52

Nancy -I'm sure the dog does have loving traits, most dogs do, but you can't let that override the fact that this is a large breed that can be unpredictable. A dog that had just savaged our sheep came up to us with a wagging tail and wonderfully friendly. He'd still killed though.
The owner will be tired, have less time and attention for what is a needy and time consuming dog, and having dealt with fear aggressive large dogs it can be scary and you need to be alert and on top form all the time.
The only person that can make a rational decision on all this is the owner, with professional advice as she knows the dog best, I wouldn't be passing the dog on to anywhere, for his own sake.

Unicorn34 · 28/02/2017 14:29

ALL animals can be unpredictable, some more than others obviously. The most vicious dog I have ever known is a friend's Jack Russell, evil little shit. You cannot leave any baby alone with ANY animal, its just common sense. A baby could be viciously mauled, or smothered lovingly by a cat - the same outcome. OP, this is your call and I can understand why this is so difficult. Your dog may protect this baby as part of its pack, or it may not... this is the difficult part. You must do what is best for YOUR family. Training at this point with a crying doll (one of the "live ones" that cries at night) may be a good way of finding out how he reacts to just the noise? So sorry you are having to make this choice. Good luck

yellowfrog · 28/02/2017 14:30

Lemondrop09 - my heart goes out to you. You are clearly a fantastic, caring and highly-experienced dog owner, and facing a horribly difficult decision.

I think the things to bear in mind are that animals don't foresee death. If you chose to have your dog PTS, he will not know that it's coming, he won't dread the event or agonise over the missed future in the way a human would, and he won't suffer. He will just be here one day, and not the next.

Rehoming him will at the minimum cause him a period of stress and uncertainty. If you know someone who you trust will give him a happy and secure future, then this unhappy time might be worth it for the long-term outcome. However, if you can't pass him directly to another home you trust, you risk the entire rest of his life being one of stress and uncertainty (if any rescue organization would even consider him, which I suspect most won't). Given how you clearly care about your dog, I can't see the latter being a realistic option.

If you choose to keep him, you know the risks and the difficulties that lie ahead. In your position I too would be horribly torn, but I think, like you, I would be feeling deep down that keeping him isn't the best option. The muzzle idea is a possibility though - only you know your dog enough to know if this would be bearable for him while at the same time able to mitigate any risk he may pose to your baby.

I am sure that you will chose the best and safest option, because you have clearly managed to do just that for him for all the years you have owned him. If that choice is to PTS, console yourself with knowing how long and happy a life you have given him that he would never have had otherwise.

Nancy91 · 28/02/2017 14:30

It doesn't matter that the dog is a large breed, many large breeds are extremely trainable and many small dogs are stubborn and snappy. I have had rescue dogs from GSDs to chihuahua crosses and I can tell you ALL dogs can be unpredictable. Does that mean nobody should have a dog and a child in the same house?

Also the example above regarding the dog killing a sheep, that is the prey instinct - but dogs are domesticated to live with humans and have been for quite some time. People also kill and eat sheep you know.

Why should this healthy dog be put to sleep? Would you have a person euthanised because they were easily frightened?

I think if the OP put the dog to sleep she would regret it and always wonder if the dog would have accepted the baby. I would wait and see how the dog reacts to the baby and if he seems stressed I would endeavour to rehome him. There are people that would adopt a dog like this and he still has years in him yet to adapt to a new family.

sj257 · 28/02/2017 14:38

I had to rehome my dog while pregnant. Thankfully she was young and a lovely little dog, issue was just she needed more training and time than we could give her and I was worried that she would become naughty when the baby arrived. It broke my heart but now the baby is here I know 100% that I did the right thing, I would never have coped with her and it wouldn't have been fair on her. My baby has cried and needed feeding or holding all day today and is unsettled every evening, it'd be impossible for you to see to your dog if your baby was like this. Could you take him to a rescue then the final decision is out of your hands so to speak? I'm sorry you are having to deal with this x

BaggyCheeks · 28/02/2017 14:52

Nancy91 It matters in this case that the dog is a large breed because of everything the OP has said about it's temperament. Of course all dogs are unpredictable, but in this case you have a dog who:

  • Can't be exercised around other people or dogs - requires two hands to handle safely.
  • The owners have to hire a field to run him in
  • Has a poor prey drive
  • Shows no warning signs (growling, haunches) before lunging
  • Has had thousands of pounds and countless hours spent with behaviourists, vets and training to minimal effect.
  • Is also a large guard breed with poor breeding and poor early socialisation.
  • Would have been put down with his litter mate at 8 months old had the OP not intervened 7 or so years ago.

How much more would you expect the OP to reasonably do? This dog, for it's breed type, is now elderly and isn't going to change. Everything is an "If", and highly likely to cause the animal stress. There isn't a grey area for how things will go. Either the dog won't be bothered by the baby or the dog will go for the baby at some point. That's not to say the OP doesn't love her dog - it's obvious that she does from her posts. But keeping a dog alive at any cost and against it's comparable quality of life isn't showing it love.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2017 15:00

Of course it matters, among other things, that this is a large breed!

Why are people so stupid??????

dowhatnow · 28/02/2017 15:01

What does DH think?

You say he's been fantastic and stepped up to the plate while you've been sick these last few weeks. How will he feel doing this for the longer term? How will he feel missing out on the baby while he's tending the dog because you are feeding , knackered etc?
If he agrees because he wants you to be happy, then it won't be long before frustration or resentment kicks in. He's got to be on board 100% for the massive adjustments you would have to make to keep the baby and dog separate. From what you've said he's doing it for you rather than because he wants to.
You have to balance the needs and wishes of the dog, yourself, the baby and also your DH.

Spudlet · 28/02/2017 15:02

Because they think with their hearts before their heads, Bertrand. Not generally a good way to be around animals, ime.

OVienna · 28/02/2017 15:10

Would you have a person euthanised because they were easily frightened?

Read that back to yourself - What.The.Actual.Fuck are you talking about?

Nancy91 · 28/02/2017 15:16

I would expect her to wait until the baby is here and not kill the dog for something he has not done. Failing that, I would hope that she could advertise the dog for rehoming, whether that be through a rescue centre or not. The OP knows that there are people that take on difficult dogs, she has done it!

I think that as the dog is in no pain and he has not attacked anyone, he shouldn't be euthanised. He has a responsible owner who I strongly believe can manage him with positive training / muzzles if needed. Others may disagree but I couldn't read this thread and not say anything. Sad

Vermillioncomfyshoes · 28/02/2017 15:20

I think that as the dog is in no pain

Nobody knows that. Would you call mental distress pain? I would.

Nancy91 · 28/02/2017 15:41

Vermillion I see your point, however I don't think the dog is in constant mental distress, by the way the OP talks about the dog I think she provides him with a nice life, he probably loves his toys, food, running around his field and getting fuss just like all other dogs. Just because he is reactive to new dogs / people it doesn't mean he has nothing in his life to live for.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2017 15:43

But his life will have to change when the baby arrives.

minipie · 28/02/2017 15:45

The OP knows that there are people that take on difficult dogs, she has done it! No, she took on a puppy expecting he would improve. People who take on 8 year old dogs with the issues she describes are vanishingly rare.

Those who are advocating a "try it and see" period are not, I think, considering the realities of that period.

The OP and her DP will have a newborn. They are likely to be exhausted. When you are exhausted, mistakes get made. In this case a mistake could be lethal. Even if no lethal mistake is made, it will be very stressful for all concerned - including the poor dog - and there is a high probability they will decide they have to PTS at the end of the trial period anyway. The chances of a miraculous turnaround where the dog becomes child safe are slim to none. Given that, I think it's far kinder and safer to PTS now without putting him through that stress and with the time and energy to devote to giving him the best ending you can.

Good luck with the decision OP.