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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

707 replies

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 10:29

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

OP posts:
Lucy7400 · 27/02/2017 23:03

What an awful situation. On balance, I would PTS. Sorry to say that OP but I don't see what choice you have.

KCpip · 27/02/2017 23:04

Hi, I haven't read all the responses but just want to say, we rehomed a fear/aggressive dog a number of years ago. We already had a nervous/timid rescue dog and we were clear that with a 2nd dog we were looking for a more settled dog. We soon found this wasn't the case and I never thought I would be someone to do this but we returned the dog to the foster home. The foster woman was delighted to have him back and ended up keeping him. One of my reasons for returning him at the time was knowing that we were planning for children in the future and I couldn't imagine our home in the future with this dog. A lot of his fear/aggression was making our other dog worse too. Two things I want to say really, firstly, with any dog there is a lot of work to ensure the safety of a new baby in your home. Even with our timid/nervous dog I worried about introductions and whether my nerves would make matters worse. Things are fine with our daughter but I always remember that a dog is a dog and should never be assumed safe or left with your child without you in the room. Secondly, if you do feel the situation is unmanageable for you (and really despite what anyone says, it sounds like you are the main dog owner/walker/keeper so you need to be happy) please don't assume that someone else will not want your dog or agree to rehome your dog. I felt like the dog we returned was completely unmanageable for me and for our home but for someone else the same dog is perfect and a much loved part of their family. Best of luck in making this difficult decision and with your new arrival.

gardenflowergirl · 27/02/2017 23:05

You are not going to be able to relax and enjoy your new baby as you will be too worried about the dog's reactions. Imagine worse case scenario that the dog gets jealous... You are both going to be tired with a new born and may not be able to have the reactions you anticipate in dealing with the dog's potential changed behaviour. So, if the worst did happen... what decision would you have wished you had made? For me, if there is any doubt, there is only one decision you can make. The child comes first. The dog will have to go.

lukeymom · 27/02/2017 23:05

It's hard but he's big strong dog with behavioural issues. A baby wouldn't stand a chance by it. Life would be too stressful handling the dog and baby together.
I owned a Jack Russel dog for 16 years. All through my 20's and into my 30's. I was never thinking about children from the start. He was my baby ,my companion. As an adult dog he had slight behavioural issues in that he would snap at strangers who come to the house. He also would snap at a young girls feet whenever she come to the house. I knew it was.'t acceptable and I used to shout at him but also put him away in another room if we had visitors. Eventually he got used to the girl after she started taking him for walks. I knew though that if I was to have children at some point he wouldn't get on. He would get jealous if I hugged anyone and growl and bark. I knew having a baby he wouldn't be trusted around it. This begun to be a worry.By this time my dog was elderly and was getting slower and having illnesses.
I'd met someone I wanted a baby with and we were trying but I was having health problems and needed surgery. By the time I conceived my dog had died.He was put to sleep. It was his time.
I would get advice from dogs homes ,ask if they would take him in. And what will the likely outcome be if they do. I would say it will be for the best if he is eventually put to sleep. You love him but it will be for the best all round.At least he had a bit of a life when you took him in and you done your best for him.Good luck.

LoveBeingAMum555 · 27/02/2017 23:13

We rescued a dog 4 years ago, very similar to yours, bad start in life, nervy around visitors. We have tried different trainers and methods and things have improved but he can still be unpredictable. Our boys were 12 and 14 when the dog came to us and we quickly realised that kids coming to the house was a problem. He did nip one of my son's friends early on which I was horrified by. The dog seems to feel threatened by the noise, movement and behaviour of children. One trainer told us that its very possible that he was hit or beaten by kids or teenagers.

With our own kids he is fine and they adore him. They know that too much shouting, crying and play fighting terrifies the dog and he could react. We have two dog gates and he is crate trained. However we do have to be careful when the boys have friends around, the dog has to stay in his crate and for sleepovers the dog goes to stay with a friend. When we realised how much of a problem this would be we had a very honest discussion with the boys and they insisted that we kept him. DH would also not hear of us getting rid of the dog.

To be honest I have had many times when I have regretted that decision. We live in the middle of nowhere and visitors rarely turn up unannounced but it's still a pain. The problem is that you can't rely on children to behave a certain way around the dog for any length of time, it's just not realistic and with children you can't take any chances.

Sorry but if I can only see one solution and that would be to say goodbye to him. Very hard though and I do feel for you.

Viperama · 27/02/2017 23:15

Gosh I really feel for you OP. Not the same thing at all, but we have had 2 rescue cats for 4 years now. I was on bedrest for half my pregnancy and they were so amazingly supportive.
I view pets as family, and so I can empathise with your situation.
My cats were good as gold with my son when he was small, then when I returned to work the cat that I connect most with started shitting on our bed every single day. We've tried everything, behaviouralist, etc. She's just jealous, it's a betrayal in her eyes. We always left them in the day 5 days a week and they were fine, along comes another family member, and he gets to go out too after a year. It's just too much for her to take.
We've locked her out of our bedroom now (except when we are in it) and she now poops on the bathroom floor in front of her box. This isn't ideal but it's tolerable, it's her stress release / act of rebellion.
Animals are animals and as such are so unpredictable. If my cat was a great big hulking dog with more serious behavioural issues I'd have to make that unthinkable decision myself.
I really feel for you and your fur baby. But I'm pretty sure on reading your post, you know in your heart what's best, and those mommy protective hormones only get stronger as baby grows.
You've given your dog so much love, that she never would have had otherwise, focus on what she's had that she wouldn't of with anyone else. You given her such a great life.
Big hug

AhNowTed · 27/02/2017 23:16

OP I wouldn't trust my Jack Russel, never mind a big aggressive dog with the problems you describe. Honestly it's a no brainier

Logansnana · 27/02/2017 23:17

Hamilton13 Thank you xx I just don't understand these animal haters and why should the midwife and ss get involved they didn't when I brought my babies home xx

SliceofLemon · 27/02/2017 23:32

Hi, I'm sorry I haven't read all of your replies, you've had so many.

I have a dog and a baby.

My dog is as trustworthy as they come but it's still stressful keeping an eye on both baby and dog and not being able to put baby down on the floor so freely when dog is around.

It really sounds like there is no way you can trust your dog. As others have said he may accept baby as part of the pack and all good, but it's just not worth the risk! It's also not fair to rehome him unless there's someone keen to take him who already knows him. If you do decide to PTS, try not to feel guilty. You have given him a good life. He will just fall asleep and never wake up, knowing nothing of what's about to happen. If you 'wait and see' what signs will you look for to make your decision? Good luck!

startingtheengine · 27/02/2017 23:46

Lemon I really feel for you.

10 years ago we had a small dog who suffered with fear aggression. He was only ok with 4 people, walking him was stressful and having visitors was impossible as he would bark and growl. If we shut him in a different room he would wee all over the floor.

We had him from a puppy, socialised him etc etc. Had him assessed by a behaviourist who diagnosed the fear aggression and said that there wasn't much else that we could do to help him overcome it that we hadn't already tried. But she did say there was a drug (sorry I can't remember the name) that we could try, but it could also make him worse rather than better, so we didn't try it.

DH and I knew that at some point in the future we would have to make the decision to have him pts as we would never trust him around a baby (he had snapped at me) and he would not be suitable for re-homing. Fortunately for us (and him) we didn't have to make that decision as less than a year later he dropped down dead playing his favourite ball game. He was 4.

Although we were devastated at the time the relief of not having to worry about when and where we walked him or if we wanted friends or family round was enormous.
You have an incredibly hard decision to make; in your shoes I would pts.

I hope you are feeling less sick Flowers
sorry that's it a bit of an essay

circlesandcircles · 28/02/2017 00:04

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread. This is the first time I've logged into MN for about 5 years, your post compelled me to reply.

I read up to the point where you said that your dog doesn't issue warning signs if he's uncomfortable or scared - he just lunges. This is a big red flag. Possibly before he lived with you he was taught not to growl or warn that he was scared. It's a shame, because growling, etc, is normal and a good way for your dog to communicate his fears.

I had a dog who used to growl before lunging (although never did to a person/child) which made me able to spot that he really didn't like being around my firstborn. It wasn't a problem when baby was newborn. Like you, he's a guard breed and needed to be walked muzzled as he is dog aggressive. When baby became mobile it was a growing problem. Dog wasn't happy, I wasn't happy, I was constantly on edge, and poor dog spent a lot of time shut behind a baby gate.

I was lucky as a friend took my dog on - a single guy with a very different lifestyle that didn't involve children.

I think possibly my dog felt usurped by my baby, as I had owned dog before DH/baby came along. We tried behaviourists, we tried socialising him better, we tried so many things but ultimately that whole period was just awful. It was constant guilt, and contributed significantly to my PND.

I don't know what I'd have done if my friend hadn't been able to take him. But he was younger. This was 5 years ago. Dog in question is 10 this year and still happy and healthy. However it sounds as though by the time baby arrives, your dog may not adjust well to the upheaval, and the guilt will weigh on you terribly if he's miserable - as it will tenfold if he injures your baby.

I would never normally condone PTS for a dog that had done nothing to warrant it, necessarily, but it seems to be the more humane option in this situation. Yes, you will feel guilty, but he has had a happy life with you and you have very likely given him years of love that he wouldn't have lived to see if you hadn't rescued him, as he wouldn't have been a likely candidate for rehoming, so would have been PTS as a pup.

Your baby is the next chapter. Good luck. Sorry if this is all a little incoherent, I should be asleep.

38cody · 28/02/2017 00:39

We had a similar issue - our English Bull just didn't like children - which was fine - until we had one.
We were lucky in that Fil is a dog lover and retired and he offered a home but If he hadn't we would have had to have him put down (Dog not Fil) as he wouldn't have been safe with baby/child and sooner or later there would have been a baby gate breech.
The baby safety HAS to come first - If I were you I would place an add locally explaining the situation - you never know, somebody might take him in, but if not...baby must come first.

Adarajames · 28/02/2017 01:09

teacups New Hope is rescue I was trying to remember name of, Nial does great things with scared / terrified dogs, worth having a talk with him lemon

I don't have any advice for you, but want to say what a bloody amazing, responsible loving owner you've been to your poor confused and scared dog, he couldn't have asked for a better home and certainly ignore the cretins telling you otherwise! Flowers

As for the Dogs Trust MYTH of never putting a healthy dog down, well their version of HEALTHY is very different to mine, and I'm certain very different to those shouting at you about how evil you are to consider euthanising him and should hand him over to DT! I can pretty much guarantee he will fail their 'health' check in moments; around 20 healthy non-aggressive issue free dogs are put to sleep EVERY DAY in the uk due to a shortage of homes for them, what do people think will happen to this poor dog in such circumstances?!!

Lemon - whatever you decide for your beloved boy will be the right decision because you know him and what is best for him. Warm thoughts for you having such a difficult situation to sort

Tirtytreeandaturd · 28/02/2017 01:20

Wow! Animal v baby story. No wonder 588 messages.

If ur plight is out there on social media you will be inundated with offers of dog rescuing. Better still if it's picked up by the DM! The Brits love a soppy underdog story.

Pls don't "euthanise" the dog 🐶 unless you have explored every avenue. I'm surrounded by rescue animals, they are expensive,time consuming all encompassing. I can't imagine life without them. My kids are older so safe, I get that. Somebody out there will take your dog on. Don't give up .

FaintlyBaffled · 28/02/2017 04:20

I'm not normally prone to returning to threads I've commented on, but the sheer naivety on this thread has left me gobsmacked.
Firstly, "The Dogs Trust" will take him Hmm
All rescues have waiting lists and are not beholden to take any dog. An anti destruction policy only works if you are super selective of the dogs you take in the first place. A mainstream charity like TDT will not take him on if the OP is open about his issues (which given what I've read from her, I'm certain she would be)

Secondly, there's bound to be someone who will rehome himHmm
So the OP should wait for this mythical couple with acres of land, no family or friends, no pets who want nothing more than to adopt a potentially dangerous, not to mention older dog.

Thirdly, the OP has already said that he is a mix of two guarding breeds and weighs 40kg. Im not sure many people on this thread actually have any experience of a dog of this size, power and temperament. He should not immediately be assumed to be dangerous simply on this basis, but PP's should be under no illusion that this is not the same as owning a big Labrador.

Lastly (and perhaps most worryingly) the OP says he lunges with no warning. How anyone thinks that it is acceptable to "try him out" with the baby is beyond me Angry

Crumbs1 · 28/02/2017 04:41

People overreact to potential risk of child abuse/abduction (when risk from strangers is a constant low) and won't let their children do anything for fear of something happening. I can name the children who have suffered in this way - suspect we all can. Then we consider leaving our child with a dog with history of aggression- far, far more little ones maimed and killed by horrific injuries from dogs. Your average guard dog is not about to be stopped by a baby gate. The dog is likito see the baby as a threat. You need to have the dog destroyed.

FaintlyBaffled · 28/02/2017 04:51

That's my point though crumbs, the dog will not be "destroyed" he will be put to sleep. While the outcome is obviously the same, the manner in which it is carried out is very different.

Blackfellpony · 28/02/2017 06:36

Who on earth is going to rescue an 8 year old 40kg dog with a history of aggression?

Do you realise how many lovely dogs with no issues are euthanised each day because they can't find homes?

Most reputable rescues won't touch a dog with human or stranger aggression with a barge pole and rightly so. I've seen dogs rotting in kennels for years as they have been aggressive and can't be adopted. That is a disgraceful life for a dog if you ask me.

Hmm

I work along side dog rescues. The honest truth is it's very unlikely the dog would be adopted.
Chances are it will sit in kennels for months and months and then be PTS anyway.

If he were mine and I was sure I couldn't keep him or he baby safe I would have him PTS in the arms of the people he loved and not knowing a thing about it and I wouldn't feel ashamed for doing so.

I'm not saying there's not things you can try OP but I think the only person who could give you and honest opinion of the dog is a qualified registered behaviourist. Remember you have to live like that for the rest of his life. It's very restricting to have a dog like you have- I have one too and know what you will be facing in a few months time,if your not 100% committed it's a recepie for disaster!

TinfoilHattie · 28/02/2017 07:13

Fuck me, the world has gone MAD.

OP has clearly thought a lot about this and has put in a lot effort to sort out some very serious behaviours. This is a large, powerful animal who is unpredictable, aggressive, has to be muzzled when out, OP doesn't trust it around other people, dog has hurt both OP and her DH by jumping.

And yet, you get pages and pages of people telling her that the dog "deserves" her to do more! She's bloody done all she can and is weighing up the risk of a tiny baby against a dangerous dog! And every single time the baby's needs have to come first. Always. If that means putting the dog to sleep (destroying it, euthanising it, however you want to call it) then everyone should be fine with that.

Because the baby is a PERSON and the dog is an ANIMAL.

It is your duty as a parent to protect your child. Agree with other posters who say people get het up over things which probably won't happen like having your child abducted, yet when it involves an ickle-wickle doggy-woggy all common sense goes out the window.

OP you know what you have to do. Nobody said it would be an easy decision but your loyalty is to your new baby, not the dog.

Skooba · 28/02/2017 07:23

I managed to rehome an 11 year old dog - it had bitten a few ankles but someone in a country setting took him on. People are very kind and don't want to see the dog put down. It's def worth trying.

frumpet · 28/02/2017 07:36

I really feel for you OP , I wouldn't want to be in your shoes in a million years . If I were you I would contact a breed specific rescue and be totally open about your dog's issues , there may be someone who could offer him the perfect home , unlikely , but there may be , that way, I would at least feel as though I had explored the options . In all honesty , I would be contemplating PTS in your situation , and I am saying that as someone who has managed dogs and babies in the past .

littleladybird14 · 28/02/2017 07:37

OP
As a realistic option for OP could i ask your area maybe? Only on the basis that someone reasonably local on here could suggest animal rescue charities that could help? Im NW based and know of one which campaigns a lot not to have a healthy dog PTS and works with a local dog behaviour specialist to help those with aggressive issues.
It may be something you can do yourself but just hoping we can help source any other potential option before PTS becomes the last resort.
Flowers

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2017 08:07

Just in case anyone else can't be arsed to read the thread- the OP has spent 8 years working on this dog's issues. There is nothing kind or humane in uprooting an anxious damaged dog from all it has known and loved and condemning him to years in a rescue or an uncertain future with strangers. As any real animal lover would agree.

littleladybird14 · 28/02/2017 08:17

Bert in case that is aimed at me i have read the whole thread and commented earlier with my own personal experiences with a fear aggressive dog. I am an animal lover who will look at ANY and EVERY option before PTS becomes a last resort. My post above was an attempt to actually help the OP with some realistic support rather than an opinion which given we all have our own will not be overly helpful in helping what is already a very difficult situation and decision for the OP to make.

PageStillNotFound404 · 28/02/2017 08:23

Littleladybird if you've read the whole thread you'll have already seen that the OP has said, at least twice, that she's in London.