Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

[Lemondrop09]

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

Bert, but that is the case they've found solutions before but a change in their circumstances and the dog is up for question- and im not meaning to disrespect the OP in that sense but that is the situation.
We had the same concerns with our dog but never once could i consider PTS, the dog wasnt ill and in pain and he hadnt harmed anyone. He isnt the 'perfect' dog, what dog is?! We are sensible and careful with him around our children, he has never ever shown any aggression to either and has in some regard become calmer since they arrived. I just dont want a general assumption that fear aggressive dogs cant be managed with a family so they should simply be PTS. That in my opinion is cruel.

Natalia, true, but how many times do we hear about dogs who attacked children sometimes fatally and 'they were a soft dog who never harmed anyone'...people become too relaxed and the dog is left with child and an attack take place. Better to be too cautious than under cautious?

"and im not meaning to disrespect the OP"

And telling her she's taking the easy way out isn't "disrespecting the OP"?

Yes I've read the thread.
I just expected more suggestions of rehoming or keeping separate than killing the dog.
I have a soppy little spaniel that I thoroughly trust. Leave her alone with my child? Nope.

So the OP takes your advice. Keeps the dog. And this 40kg, fear aggressive damaged dog that lunges without warning bites the baby.

What would your response be to that?

I really feel for your situation. In relation to the dog walking I found after having my little one walking the dog was a positive as it made me leave the house and feel less isolated in those early days so it was never really an issue and DH would walk her if the weather was bad. It took her a couple of trips out to get used to walking alongside the pram but she soon got used to it. Also a good way to lose the baby weight.

We recently had a premature baby and the hospital advised putting blankets in with the baby to get his sent on them and then taking them home for the dog to get used to the babies smell so she accepts him when he comes home and now the children are part of her pack.

This will be one of the most difficult situations you will have to make but only you know your dog. If there is anyway round having to do the unthinkable I would try but there are horror stories

I totally agree with Branleuse and everything BertrandRussell has said on this thread. It's misplaced kindness and weak sentimentality to think that keeping an animal alive at any cost is always, in every circumstance, doing the best thing for it.

A restricted life, away from its family of eight years, living in a rescue centre (however devoted their staff) would be utterly miserable for an active 40kg dog. Most rescue centres have limited resources and struggle to find good homes for dogs that are well behaved around children and other dogs. Let's face it, this dog, with all its problems, has a very limited chance of being rescued.

In the no-kill rescue centre near me, the very (very!) long-term residents are taken out for 40 min walks twice a day by different volunteers (which is quite good compared to some other places) but that still leaves 22 hrs and 40 mins per day (10 hrs of that, say, spent sleeping) in which the dog is stuck alone in a tiny cage with very little human interaction and continuity of care. That's plain wrong imho. Sometimes we have to woman up and make a hard decision.

We have to value quality of life over longevity.

Good luck op, it's an awful situation to be in, but, fwiw, I think you are a terrific dog-owner and have done wonderful things for your charge in the past eight years you have had him.

I hope you start to feel better soon too, as hg is utterly miserable.

Having a stressed and fearful dog put down is not cruel.

Keeping the dog in conditions that would increase his stress and insecurity, such as separating him from the person he has come to trust - now that's cruel.

Teacups im with you!

Bert no, im just telling it like it is!

Right, im leaving it there as its just becoming a battle of wills!

Best of luck OP and I really mean that, hope it all works out in the end

My response would be why was the dog in the room with the baby?
Many otherwise totally 'normal' socialised dogs struggle with the smell and sound of a baby and NO dog should ever be within lunging distance.

It's easy to go on MN suggesting PTS but in reality come on how is she going to do that to an animal she loves. It's unrealistic when there are other options. Surely?

I think the point is that this (large) dogs lunges without any warning signals (well dogs always give warning signals, but sometimes they are so infinitesimally and subtle to us humans that we can't or don't have time to recognise or process them). The question is, in those circumstances, are you going to risk having the baby in your arms in the presence of your dog to "try out" whether he is ok with children or not? I think not! And as previously discussed, the separation gate thing and toddler thing will be even harder tbh and utterly miserable for all concerned.

To make it clear (in my mind at least) if you put the dog to sleep it is done on your terms. The event itself is calm, the dog enjoys a fun couple of days beforehand and everybody was expecting it. You choose the occasion, it's often possible to have it done at home and your final memories of the dog are of peace and regret.
When a dog attacks (be that a human, another dog or livestock) sufficiently badly that it warrants ending its life, then that dog is destroyed- in the case of an attack on a child, seized by the police and dealt with by them. The owners last memory of the dog is still one of sadness but also an overwhelming sense of being let down and betrayed and often a hatred of the dog for what it has done (however illogical that may be)
For context I have had many dogs PTS and one destroyed. The experiences were totally different and I wouldn't wish the latter on anybody as my memory of the dog is still tainted by those final hours.

x posts with yours Teacup not in response to it (evidently!)

Teacups I think lots of the problems with threads like this are that people give advice with no real experience of these types of dogs. A soppy little spaniel is a huge difference to a large dog with fear aggression and a guarding instinct. Especially one who's genetics you are fighting a loosing battle against.

People with friendly dogs can't seem to grasp how stressful it is to have a dog that needs separating from the family or who takes a huge deal of effort just to take for a walk every day. There are no fun days out, no little trips to the beach, no leaving the dog in the care of others that don't know it etc etc. It's a huge ask to expect someone to give up their lives In a way for a dog like this, especially an old one!

For what it's worth I have a fear aggressive dog and keeping him separate fromt the outside world is hard enough...never mind doing it in the house also. I've had mine from a puppy so feel responsible for his behaviour and I wouldn't dream of passing my problem to someone else. I would PTS him on the spot if I couldn't keep him.

Fear aggressive dogs need stability and consistency, neither of which can be achieved in a kennel environment or by someone who thinks cuddles and basic obedience will fix something like this.

As for the dog hasn't actually done anything it's probably due to him having a responsible owner and not because he wouldn't. Of course he hasn't bitten as he is on lead and muzzled, I dare say if she set him free there would be trouble.

Anyway OP as I suggested before there is a guy called 'niall Lester' on Facebook from the new hope rescue. Please look him up and see if he can suggest anything. Rescuing dogs from being PTS is what he does and then he finds suitable rescue spaces for them.

What other options are there that are guaranteed not to cause this already insecure, managed-to-within-an-inch-of-its-life dog significantly increased stress?

I have a soppy spaniel now but I've had many many dogs from different countries/environments over the yrs and all have been rescues with every issue you can imagine. But yes I get your point.

Genuine question. Of course I agree that a healthy dog should
not have to be put down. But does this not include mental health?
If the dog is skittish, aggressive and unpredictable to the point where micro management becomes necessary to keep other dogs and humans safe - does this not indicate a mental health problem? And therefore the dog can't be described as healthy in all respects?

This thread has raised the question in my mind.

OK I have to go to work. ^^ interesting question. I hope OP finds the solution whatever it may be. Have a good day all.

"My response would be why was the dog in the room with the baby?"

Fuck me, would it be?

How lucky you are never to have made even the slightest mistake.

And how unspeakably cruel you are to think that a life with strangers or locked in a cage away from all it knows and loves is the best outcome for this poor dog.

My dog is a rescue. He's not aggressive, not high maintenance and had always been very relaxed around children. But he still struggled to adapt to DS and we have still had a couple of cross moments (nothing major, no injuries, but dog has told us very clearly that he's not comfortable with the situation).

We're getting by... but I wouldn't hesitate to have him or any dog put down if I thought DS was at risk. My dog is old (10 this year), arthritic and a spaniel - so stubborn, naughty and prone to deafness in the face of horseshit and dead things! I love him, but I know it would be awful for him to be rehomed again.

Op, I would fully and unhesitatingly support your decision to have your dog put down. He sounds like he's going to struggle far more than our dog has. Please ignore the 'life at any cost' brigade. They will never see sense. They'll also never step up to their principles and take a dog like yours on.

Vermillion, you are absolutely right. Which is why the "no healthy dog put down" places can get away with it.

But some people don't care how bloody miserable a dog is- if it hasn't got a terminal physical illness then it must be kept alive. Against all reason.

I've been offering a home from home doggie day care/boarding service - more because I love dogs than anything. Dogs are pretty smart and you've explained that his agression is more fear based than anything - and obvious only to other dogs and strangers. I had v.similar worries with a German Shepherd like this in the past. So my feeling is that you shouldn't leap to conclusions about how he'll react towards your baby. As far as the dog is concerned, he'll know you're pregnant and will probably be more than accepting of the baby, knowing he/she will be loved as a member of the family. Give him a chance - I think you're probably worrying unduly. My G.shepherd loved my children so much, she would 'herd' the other g.shepherd we had at the time, away from the toddlers (I had twins) Then if your dog displays any untoward behaviour, then act. But I think the others are right, it wouldn't be fair to rehome him again now. Best to put him down if that's what you have to do. But make it an absolute last resort. And well done for rehoming. Diane

Look up the rescue organisation I suggested before calling it cruel. They are not your average rescue centre. They work with cases like this.

Yes I would question why a dog like this was in the position to attack a baby. Sorry I didn't realise I was actually expected to give a full detailed description of my exact reaction to a made up event. Soz.

"Yes I would question why a dog like this was in the position to attack a baby"

In a case like this, the obvious answer is "because someone made a mistake". I certainly can't guarantee that I will never make a mistake. Can you? There are people on this thread asking for their children to be bitten by letting their children pull themselves up on a dog's tail- the op is not one of them.