To ask you honestly if you think my DD is badly behaved?

[tickettostruggling]

DD is 3, and I used to think a lot of her behaviour was normal for this age. I still think it's normal but I wonder if DD is maybe at an extreme end and I wonder if its my parenting I definitely don't want soft soaping here so please give it to me straight.

• tantrums, I know, normal for this age group but they last such an unbelievably long time and are so forceful. She honestly screams as if she is being murdered. Anything and nothing sets them off, things like buttoning her cardigan the wrong way, putting a blue hair bow in and she wanted purple.

• rudeness (this upsets me most) she is not a polite little girl. We were at a party the other day and she was given a "prize." She responded with a foot stamp and a loud "noooooooo NOOOOOOOOOOO I want THAT one." She couldn't have "that" one so she just kept screaming. It was a gift She has done this before if anyone gives her anything, so embarrassing.

• won't walk anywhere for long periods, she has to be carried and only by me, not DH or one of my friends. I've stood for an hour telling her to walk but she doesn't give up. It's definitely about being close to me not tiredness as alternatives like DH carrying her, standing on the buggy board, don't work.

• sleep, she's always been a bad sleeper and it's not improving, she wakes several times in the night and again it is me she wants.

It sounds awful but it's putting a strain on our relationship as DH thinks (he doesn't say so explicitly but it's obvious) I have "caused" this and I think maybe I have as I was very into the whole gentle parenting thing when she was born. We were at the zoo the other day and DH suddenly walked away with other DC when she was whining and crying. I asked him what was wrong and he said "I wanted to smack her, and I felt awful for wanting to smack her, but I did." I knew what he meant. Obviously I don't want to smack her but I do feel like she's making us all and more importantly herself miserable right now.

Any advice?

Brw, I had a tantrumer too (still do). It's nit easy.

Totally agre with pp who said also where appropriate such as the bow situation saying "well how about we use the blue bow tomorrow/later" etc

It sounds like gentle parenting did work with your other children so don't feel like you are in the wrong. She's just a different character.

No one here can give you the exact answer as no one has seen her or knows her so you just see these suggestions and try what might fit

You need to perfect the Stern Face with Paddington Hard Stare.

Just kidding, but this still works on my eldest and she is 22. She needs to learn to respect you, and know that you will not tolerate bad behaviour.

I agree with previous posters, act immediately on the behaviour. Remove her from the situation. Tell her no, that is not acceptable behaviour. Add in 'The Look', and your attitude to the behaviour is Ice Queen. Minimal eye contact, minimal speech, until her behaviour changes. Then a cuddle and a brief explaination of what she did, how it upsets you and other people etc.

Also agree with pick your battles. You must be tired too, could you get DH to do nights for a couple of nights, bung in some ear plugs and try and catch up with some sleep?

Good luck.

My consequences would be similar to itscurtains.

You've been given good advice here which you should follow, setting boundaries and following through with consequences are essential to bringing up children. It will only take a few times of following through before just the warning is needed. But it will get worse beforehand it gets better, she has you wrapped around her little finger and knows that she will get what's she wants eventually. So the first time you don't give in she will get a shock!

My dd isn't quite so spirited as yours but she was still a shock after ds who was such an easy going 3yo

We use a marble reward jar for things like sleeping in her bed all night, sharing nicely, behaving well at parties etc.

I also don't take any nonsense. So if she behaved badly whilst out I would take her home, remove her from soft play, take away an item she was crying over etc.
I put her to time out if she misbehaves at home and that has helped massively. She hates the thought of being separated from us/missing out.

Dh gets up with her in the night occasionally if she is screaming for me and whilst I hate it I let him get on with it as she has to learn she can't have everything her own way and that mummy is tired. If I got up to her every night she would keep on doing it.

Hunger and tiredness triggers it tho so I keep her well fed and rested if I can!!

You say you want her to be able to open up to you and be able to come to you with problems etc.

She won't do that unless she trusts you. She won't trust you unless she feels secure with you and she won't feel secure with you without boundaries.

Unless she has confidence in you she will never feel that you are able to help her with her problems as she gets older. You need to show that you are confident, capable and able to deal with any problems she may have you are not showing her that you are able to do any of these things if you don't give her boundaries and allow her to clamber all over you figuratively and literally.

You are allowing her to control everything which is actually really uncomfortable and scary for a child.

You sound like a lovely mum and I bet you are your DD will have a wonderful relationship as she gets older but I do feel that you are doing both of you a mis-service by not giving her a clear boundaries.

Thank you, I have really, really appreciated every single answer. Time to get tough, then? :)

I mean this with kindness OP...yes your 'gentle parenting' technique probably has the largest part to play in your daughter's poor behaviour. Your dh thinks so and he would know because he's there to witness it.

Her conduct sounds exactly like that of a little girl who has been indulged and pandered to while never facing any actual or useful sanctions for undesirable behaviour. The reason she only wants you is that she knows she can control you and you'll go along with it.

I have a friend who is a gentle parenter. Her son is 4 and very much like you describe your daughter. He is rude and demanding, throws disproportionate and frequent tantrums that she is at a loss as to how to deal with and he's up frequently in the night wanting mum to dance to his tune. She is exhausted, her son is often miserable and a bit of nightmare to be around and unfortunately unlike you, she is in complete denial about the cause of his difficult behaviour. It is so frustrating watching her flounder and pander, trying to cajole and persuade him to toe the line. He pays no heed and simply carries on ruling the roost and being thoroughly obnoxious. He is gaining notoriety as a Hell kid, poor lad and she comes across as being completely ineffective.

She has never asked for advice or insight so I have never offered it. If she did, I'd tell her straight that Gentle Parenting is a waste of time and clearly isn't working for them.

With the best intentions in the world, strap on your mum boots and get a grip.

DS went through a similar stage and one thing I found that did help was to try and stop over explaining/ engaging. I did attachment/ gentle parenting and while I would do it again I find where it falls down is that they become so used to you anticipating their needs they (and you/ I) don't have the skills to move on from that part where you can't read their minds so well (because they are completely irrational - e.g. hair bow). One thing I had got used to doing was over explaining everything - which works when they are a wide eyed baby - you could talk them out when they were upset at a year old, once they can argue it's harder to get a word in edgeways

'You don't want the party gift? Ok', hand it back and leave (you said it was at the end anyway). Don't engage with her but those around her 'thanks for the party, she'll be fine, we're off, please ignore her' - the tantruming is happening anyway. Pop her in the car and ignore it. When she is calmer, later at home, comment on it in a factual way 'I realise you didn't want the gift at X's but if we get given presents we don't have a choice we say thank you'. Don't engage in a discussion - just a 'yes, I know you wanted the other but that's not the way it works'/ 'I realise you don't think that's fair but that's just the way it is'. And then move on - stop the discussion/ just repeat 'that's the way it is'

Same with the hair bow, if you have given an option and she kicks off, walk away, go to the loo, stop engaging, do something else and keep your verbal responses short and to the point 'No, not while you are crying/ screaming' and then ignore/ carry on with washing up/ if she tries to climb up you walk away. Try (this is a key one )and keep very calm. When she does stop don't engage in further conversations about - if she is articulate she will try and wheedle around you. Don't allow it and just move on. If you are having real trouble not responding yourself after five ' But WHY MUMMY?'s respond 'I've already explained but you aren't listening at the moment, we will talk later but not now' and again remove yourself mentally, ignore at least 10 'why mummy's' and then respond in the same way. Put the radio on, avoid eye contact, talk to yourself about the dinner ingredients 'hmm now, where is the pasta, right I need X Y Z'

This is as much about your reactions as it is about hers (well it was for me anyway). Do pick your battles but then stick to them. Good luck

My eldest dd wasn't a tantrumer. She was easy. Now 12, she's still quite easy. Bit moody, but easy. We get on well.

When my ds was 3 however? Omg how I shudder at his tantrums. One was on holiday abroad where my sister lives and it was so bad that the locals she knows still talk about it 6 years later!

He would kick off over the slightest thing. A typical monster tantrum would be.

"Mummy my legs hurt"

Me - "let's see?" (Looks at legs to see itchy dry skin)
"they look itchy. We need to put moisturiser on" (he'd had this moisturiser plenty of times before with no problem)

Ds - "no"
Me - "it would make it feel better"
Ds - "no"
Me - "ok. No moisturiser then"
Ds - "but my legs hurt"
Me - "moisturiser?"
Ds - "no"
Me - "I can't help if you won't let me. Moisturiser helps"
Ds - "no"
Me - "I can't help then"
Ds - "but my legs hurt"

........and so on and so on. Escalated into the biggest tantrum ever. The screaming, the kicking, the NOISE! Luckily we were at home. Dh eventually carried him like a fighting animal him to his room. Made sure he was safe and left him to scream it out. It took about 40 mins? Eventually he came down and ds asked if we could try a different moisturiser.
A whole evening taken up over an event that was for no real reason.

I was lucky with ds though as he had a toy lion which he adored. I would tell him that Lion would have to sleep in the cupboard as a punishment if he was really naughty (or didn't calm down within reasonable time). That used to work well for us.

I used to think I wasn't getting anywhere with ds. I would repeat the same corrections of manners, the same warnings, the same punishments over and over....until we realised one day that he just didn't kick off anymore.

He'll be 10 this year. He's so witty, popular and creative. He is different to many of his friends. He shuns sport and football, preferring sci-Fi and Lego. But the most important thing is that he great company and he is happy.

You WILL get through this OP. Yes, you may need to be firmer but it keep at it. It will change.

Stop being so gentle. No offence op but she is turning into a brat and you don't want that. You cant have this screaming and shouting and hitting or what will she be like at 10? The hair bow thing I would have pushed her off, held her wrists so she couldn't hit me and very firmly, no sympathy at all because there is nothing to sympathise with, she is creating over nothing, said Stop screaming and use your words, now what's the matter? Then walk off if she doesn't speak properly. Just stop engaging. Hysterics don't get attention. Put her in time out and walk away until she calms down, no speaking except to say I'll be back when you stop screaming at me.

It's very unusual for her not to be with me, unless it's at nursery.

I do want to be her friend. Obviously I'm a parent too but I definitely want to forge a relationship with mutual respect. It's just hard when I am the only one being respectful grin

You have been wonderfully honest in every post OP and I truly believe you love your daughter and don't condone her poor behaviour at all and just want to do the best for her.

As a teacher, the parents who want to be their children's friends tend to have the worst dynamic and it shows ultimately in poor behaviour due to lack of guidance and boundaries. You can certainly be friendly and shower your child with love but you are not and never will be their friend. You are their Mum-a better relationship potentially than a friend, in my opinion.

As a mother of a toddler, I totally understand the pushing of boundaries and tantrums. Your daughter behaves wonderfully at nursery because there are boundaries there and knows that she won't get away with bad behaviour. This tells me that she does understand what she is doing to some extent and can control it.

I think what you are afraid of is the fact you don't want to frighten and intimidate your child by telling them off. However, you can calmly but firmly tell them off without getting angry and into a temper yourself. It's a technique a lot of teachers use and there is a difference between taking her tantrums personally against you and teaching and guiding her to the right course of action, through responsible parenting.

Lastly, you said upthread that you couldn't remove her from the party as you were going anyway but that is when you have to quickly think of another consequence such as not getting the prize she was offered or the party bag and fully explaining why. I think you need to start practising this OP. It will feel weird at first but I know you can do it!!!

Just to back up PP. As my dd is 12, I too know a few girls who have grown up without many boundaries or consequences. One of my dd 'friends' is really struggling at secondary school. She has no social skills. She has no idea how to join in or have a joint conversation. She's 2 terms creating a lot of drama for herself and having 'tantrums' at busy head of Year 7 teachers. Unfortunately, she's made herself quite unpopular.
I'm hoping she'll mature eventually but it's hard to hear about. I know her mum who's a lovely person but very soft. She naturally only wants the best for her dd. She's never asked my opinion so I won't give it, but I really hope it's not too late for her to turn it around .

Don't let your dd turn into that child.

the problem with going home is that it punishes the other child too, it punishes you (waste of money) it punishes any friends you have gone with

You're doing what's best in the long run though. You talk to your friends in advance, warn them how you're tackling your problems and then react firmly but kindly to any bad behaviour.

I think the parenting style that would help you the most is Janet Lansbury. She has loads of different posts but I've linked my favourite below. She's very gentle but firm - all about acknowledging the child's wishes but setting clear boundaries about what's reasonable for YOU too. "I can't carry you today" "I can't let you..."

www.janetlansbury.com/2011/11/the-key-to-your-childs-heart-7-ways-it-works/

You are not doing gentle parenting you are doing fearful parenting. You are terrified that your child will not like you if you are firm. Children don't dislike people who are firm. They dislike unfairness. It is unfair on your other DC.

I think there's something about being tough enough to cope with the fact that at times you will be the object of your child's fury and anger and hate.

This doesn't mean that you are horrible person. It simply means that you have not let them have or do something which is bad for them. And you are the adult and know better. And you also know that if you remain a caring and consistent and good parent, your child's fury and anger and hate will certainly pass.

There is a child in my social circle like this. His Mum parents very gently.

The other kids really don't like it (they are older now). I will never forget one afternoon when they were in reception I was in the park with my friends little boy (child 1) and the tantrummy kid (child 2) and his Mum. Child 2 was throwing sand, it was going into child 1's face repeatedly. Child 2's mum was doing nothing.

I left it for a bit to give her time to intervene but couldn't watch child 1 get hurt anymore so said something along the lines of "guys there is a lot of sand getting thrown. It isn't very nice. If it happens again child 1 and I will have two go home"

Within seconds child 2 had thrown sand again. I checked that he understood - he did so I packed child 1 and took him home.

On the way child 1 was so grateful as he didn't want to play with someone who was hurting him.

Child 2's mother then bitched about me to everyone else for ages for ruining the play date and undermining her....l

She is a friend and has afterschool childcare issues though so I have had child 2 subsequently along with child 1. Child 2 is always very well behaved for me (much to his Mother's surprise).

The best quote was him speaking aside to another kid "do what opinionated says, she always carries out her threats"

I hasten to add that "threats" have included going home, being made to play as three individuals in different rooms rather than altogether and not being given an after school treat to eat.

"You are not doing gentle parenting you are doing fearful parenting. You are terrified that your child will not like you if you are firm."

Yes. Exactly.

She sounds very strong willed and you sound....the opposite.

She isn't your friend, not just because she is 3 and you are a grown up, or because you are the parent and she is the child but because friends don't treat each other like that. I have friends who I love enormously and would move heaven and earth to help but I still have boundaries.

She knows if she kicks off she get a boatload of attention and carried around when everyone else is walking like suckers. You wouldn't stay friends with someone who behaved like that and the children at nursery and school won't either. Don't be so keen to be her friend that you end up being her only one.

She needs consistency and a united front, and probably more sleep. I would tackle the sleep and the carries first and shut the door on tantrums like the purple bow.

I don't think her behaviour is abnormal but I think it's a result of her personality meeting yours and flattening it.

PlayOn I ask DS2 if he wants a cuddle, if he says I give him a cuddle, it stops the tantrum, he'll be sobbing deeply and I can reason with him. But he has to say yes. If he says no, any physical contact will make him worse. Different strokes for different folks.

Thank you (again!) and ok, I think our children must have been injected with the same awkward thing at birth - that whole moisturiser thing sounds eerily like DD!

It's really difficult because like a lot of people I want a different (better) childhood for my little DD than I had. That's what I really mean by the "friend" thing - I am frightened of her resenting me.

Be what you see as mean now which we see as being firm and then they learn to behave and you can lighten up then as the child doesn't keep pushing the boundaries. It only needs occasional reinforcing because the child has learn that you mean what you say.

So you will feel mean to begin with, and as a pp's said, the behaviour will worsen to begin with as they ramp up their behaviour which has always worked for them in the past, but then everyone is happier as they know there is no point anymore. Short term pain for long term gain.

Can I just say, though, I would NEVER allow DD to hurt another child, ever, and nor would she. She really isn't like that (neither am I!) I know people are just giving examples but I might be a pushover when it's aimed against me but I would never smile timidly while my child hurt someone or something.

Great post derxa.