To ask you honestly if you think my DD is badly behaved?

[tickettostruggling]

DD is 3, and I used to think a lot of her behaviour was normal for this age. I still think it's normal but I wonder if DD is maybe at an extreme end and I wonder if its my parenting I definitely don't want soft soaping here so please give it to me straight.

• tantrums, I know, normal for this age group but they last such an unbelievably long time and are so forceful. She honestly screams as if she is being murdered. Anything and nothing sets them off, things like buttoning her cardigan the wrong way, putting a blue hair bow in and she wanted purple.

• rudeness (this upsets me most) she is not a polite little girl. We were at a party the other day and she was given a "prize." She responded with a foot stamp and a loud "noooooooo NOOOOOOOOOOO I want THAT one." She couldn't have "that" one so she just kept screaming. It was a gift She has done this before if anyone gives her anything, so embarrassing.

• won't walk anywhere for long periods, she has to be carried and only by me, not DH or one of my friends. I've stood for an hour telling her to walk but she doesn't give up. It's definitely about being close to me not tiredness as alternatives like DH carrying her, standing on the buggy board, don't work.

• sleep, she's always been a bad sleeper and it's not improving, she wakes several times in the night and again it is me she wants.

It sounds awful but it's putting a strain on our relationship as DH thinks (he doesn't say so explicitly but it's obvious) I have "caused" this and I think maybe I have as I was very into the whole gentle parenting thing when she was born. We were at the zoo the other day and DH suddenly walked away with other DC when she was whining and crying. I asked him what was wrong and he said "I wanted to smack her, and I felt awful for wanting to smack her, but I did." I knew what he meant. Obviously I don't want to smack her but I do feel like she's making us all and more importantly herself miserable right now.

Any advice?

ticket if mine has got to the so angry/upset she can't hear or won't listen, it's hopeless too. I tend to ride out the tantrum, she's stops if I am there eventually without giving in to what she wanted.

For me, being ahead of the potential issue works better. Setting her up to succeed so we don't have the tantrums in the first place. And consistency. I do think if you give in, they know. Sometime I compromise, but I never give in. If I have said no to something it's a no, but I pick my battles, and will offer alternatives, we can usually meet in the middle.

I also agree with you about having a relationship based on mutual respect. Again I think you can have that and still have boundaries.

Praise is a good positive reward, but be mindful not to overpraise. This is ridiculous, and children need to know they are doing well, but not OTT.

I have a child that had relentless tantrums without end, they got worse and worse, but he's 7 now and rarely has one. He has an extremely high metabolism and needs his sleep so as he got older we realised that being hungry and tired were massive triggers. We learnt to pace our days out better. He slept really badly as well, was a small birthweight compared to his older and younger siblings. He was an early talker but a later than siblings on most other milestones, even though he was normal and not delayed on any of them. He was very insecure if he wasn't with me, it was almost an anxiety level worried, he does still have anxiety now that can be almost obsessive. He used a buggy for longer, he liked the buggy because he would put a blanket over his head to block out the world and calm down. Do you still have a buggy? Or she insisting on being carried even with that option?
He does have special needs, diagnosed when he was 6, not saying your daughter does but sometimes there is a fine line between normal and not. It's impossible to say if something is normal without seeing it. There were times when I didn't just want to smack him, I've wanted someone to just take him away and let our family have some peace, it sounds awful to say that. What works with my other three just didn't work with him, forget time out, forget clearly stating consequences, forget removing quietly and the child knowing they're wrong. All of those things would just escalate his behaviour. Sometimes we've had to just ride the storm, but one thing is very true we never backed down and gave in. Also school has not been easy sailing either where it sounds like your daughter is fine at school and this does suggest the trigger might very well be you.

The party incident sounds like she gets what she wants and doesn't understand the concept of a gift, maybe she struggles with social cues or maybe she's used to you backing down. My son wouldn't do what your daughter did, that's very rude.

Children need boundries that are clear and firm. Without boundaries they can feel very vulnerable and lost. If she feels you don't have clear boundaries or boundaries that can change then that might be why she's playing up so much with you. She's not really sure where she is with you.

Also explaining why you have said no works for us. So I genuinely can't carry my daughter often as it hurts my back, so I tell her that. If she kicks off about a choice she made, if it's not vital like a bow, I'll say "ok well you picked this one but if you don't like it, let's look together find another but this is the last time I'm going to change it as we have to go out, so choose carefully. If it's something we can't change "I'm sorry you have changed your mind but this is what you have chosen and we can't swap it now, so do you want to have it or not?"

But Ticket your DD will only open up to you and trust you later if she sees you as a strong Mum who will help and solve problem. A week person just doesn't get that kind of trust.

My DCs are 9 yo. They talk to us about everything. With no embarrassment or holding back.

We've been very strict and set expectations of excellent behaviour all their lives (because both are very strong willed, so it was important).

We don't shout, we don't do naughty steps or counting or sticker charts.

We do very clear, strict rules with understood consequences. We expect beautiful manners at all times. We expect kindness at all times.

My very good friend set no boundaries with her DD. She refused to tell her off for fear of "breaking her spirit."

They've been yelling at each other daily for 10 years now and her DD tells her nothing. Spending time with their family is always stressful and uncomfortable. It's not a path I'd recommend.

The thing is with parenting that there is no uniform approach, we need to parent in a way that suits the child's needs and personality/circumstances.
The fact this behaviour is always aimed at you tells me that she is unsure as to where she stands with you and that may well be because of lack of boundaries or consistency.
That's not to say that she doesn't need some extra nurture and reassurance.
You can access parenting training online and it sounds like it might be useful to help you decide on a strategy.
i teach therapeutic parenting and it's not to be confused with "lax parenting"

DS was like that at 3. He used to just lose control and there'd be this little whirling ball of rage. I think it's fairly normal tbh - some children do it more than others. It's simply an age where there is a perfect storm of emotional immaturity, pushing boundaries, and trying to make the world fit. The only thing you can do is do your best to stay calm and stay firm and don't give in. DS outgrew it and I'm proud now of the well - mannered child he's become. Yours will get there too even if the journey is frustrating as hell!

Gentle parenting doesn't have to mean permissive parenting. I have lots of cuddles with my daughter, we don't smack her and I talk to her in a soft low voice. However I am firm. Before we go somewhere eg a restaurant I explain gently what is going to happen and what I expect her to do. If she does something inappropriate I give her one reminder (if you keep bamging the cutlery on the table we can't stay). If it is repeated I pick her up without comment and take her outside. I then cuddle her until she calms down enough to listen to me and explain again the behaviour I want. I ask her if she is ready to go back in and finish eating. I wait until we are both calm and relaxed and then we go back in. Unless her behaviour is great we don't stay for pudding. But if we have to leave after one course I don't make a big fuss about it I just act like we were never going to stay anyway. I find this approach works. It is not threatening it is loving guidance about how society works and how you need to behave in public. With the rudeness do you teach her what you do want her to say? For example we don't make my daughter finish her food and I have told her at every meal to eat what she likes, leave what she doesn't like on the plate and when she has finished to say "thanks for the food that was yummy". Small children don't learn manners by wanting to be nice they learn to say please and thank you because they know it is expected. E still says "I want..." and I ask her gently to try asking again and she rephrases "Please may I have..." It isn't automatic yet but she will get there. Also if she speaks to me rudely I ask her to try again in a nice voice. We don't do time outs. Instead we have quiet time in a quiet room with Mummy talking about feelings. I encourage her to say I feel cross or I feel sad instead of having a tantrum. I recommend the book "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk".

Stop carrying her. Bend down, cuddle her and explain you want to carry her but you can't. Be consistent. Offer her your attention instead and be playful. Say I don't want to walk either I wish there was an elephant we could ride on. Would that be fun. What animal would you like to ride on. Etc Get her talking then stand her up, firmly take her hand and keep chatting. Preempt requests to carry her by pretending you are tired and wanting her to carry you. Let her try and laugh with her about it.

Oh and the latest research:advice regarding tantrums is to try and take a more soothing empathic approach. The child is out of control and in extreme distress due to their undeveloped brain and simply ignoring them can be damaging and lead to an increase in the length and frequency of tantrums.
I have 5dc from 30-6 and I calmed my youngest when she tantrummed and she didn't really have them after.
I ignored or punished my elder ones and they had loads

My DS is only 11 months so I haven't got any personal experience of what you're describing, but here (for what they're worth) are my two cents:

You will get posters telling you that you should do either X or Y and that the opposite approach is too soft or too hard. The fact is it really depends on your DD. One approach does not work for all children because they aren't just one homgenous mass. That's why I don't think it makes sense to subscribe to a particular parenting 'style' like 'gentle parenting' (boy I HATE that term) as how do you know it will suit the child you have? For instance my DS hates pretty much everything attachment parenting advocates: he refused to breastfeed post 6 months, he hated being in a sling, he won't sleep on me, he won't co-sleep, he prefers going to sleep on his own. We solved the mystery of his shitty sleep when we realised we were totally over stimulating him with all the rocking, singing, cuddling etc - once we left him to it he settled in minutes and slept through. But if we have another baby maybe he/she will be the total opposite so we will adjust our parenting 'style' accordingly.

WRT toddler behaviour, here is my anecdote on the subject: I'm one of four children. My brother and I were pretty easy toddlers - had our moments I'm sure, but overall we were well behaved. My sisters, OTOH, were both really hard work - they did everything you have described your DD doing. One sister responded best to firm instructions, time outs and the naughty step, consequences for bad behaviour. The other sister responded better to distraction techniques and 'love bombing' type stuff. My Mum adapted to what worked best for both of them. Neither approach is right or wrong, it really just depends on the child.

What does your DD respond best to? If what you do at the moment isn't working, it's time to try something new.

But be consistent. I think consistency is massively key with children of all ages.

You've had good advice, just to add - imagine you're three, you're clever and you're TOTALLY in charge of your world - it's great right? Except no it isn't because you're 3, you have NO idea what you're doing, sometimes you choose the blue bow and then worry that you have it wrong? So it is really reassuring for kids to know you make all the decisions and have faith in your decisions - sure, be adaptable and listen to others, but know what you are doing. It's being authoratative, not authoritarian. 'No, stick with the blue bow you chose, the purple one will be there for tomorrow'. You're teaching about decision making. Ignore the ensuing tantrum by engaging with other kids, and if her actions spoil their time, give them a reward or your time.

We have a child in our family who is like that. She's recently turned 4. It's absolutely draining and I don't know how her parents get through the day without wanting to give her away to a half-decent home.

I do believe a lack of discipline is primarily the reason why she is the way she is. She's very spoilt, both with material things and attention, and was never reprimanded for her behaviour. The tantrums, hitting, kicking, spitting, whining, ungratefulness etc. all went unchecked. But her mother has recently had a second baby and her DD's behaviour has finally gotten to them to the point that they are now making a concerted effort to correct it. Removing her immediately from a situation, blatantly ignoring her, putting her on a step etc. until she has calmed down, constant reinforcement of positive behaviour etc. and she is somewhat better (improving!) than she was before.

You can do it. Your job is not to be her friend. That comes later. At the moment, she doesn't understand that. Your job is to be her parent first and foremost, and that means not always being fun and loving and not always letting her get away with bad behaviour.

She sounds naughty but not to the point that you can't pull it back by dropping the gentle parenting bollocks approach and putting in place some calm, non-negotiable consequences for poor behaviour. She will be absolutely fine.

I completely agree with all that apples says. That's exactly what we do too.

I do want to be her friend.

There I suspect you have the root of the problem. You don't want to be her friend, not when she's only 3. You want to treat her with love and kindness, yes, but she does not need you to be her friend. She needs you to be her parent, the one in control whilst she's too little to control herself. She'll have lots of friends over her lifetime but only one mother.

As others have said, logical consequences. So with the party bag, I'd have said she wasn't getting any prize then, and handed it back or taken it away. That way she sees that the tantrum doesn't get her what she wants, but causes her to lose out. Don't do something unrelated, like take away a favourite toy for screaming in the supermarket because that will make no sense to her and she won't relate consequence to action.

I've got two DDs, one of whom is 21 now. The 21 year old is absolutely my friend and I am hers. But at 3 we were removing her from restaurants, carrying her screaming out of supermarkets, banning TV programmes with naughty behaviour which she copied, removing her from situations if she was rude. She's always known I loved her beyond all measure, but she always also knew, right up until adulthood, that there were indisputable boundaries she could not cross. We don't need any boundaries now - she's an adult and all her life choices are hers to make alone. But until that point you've got to be at the helm, gently giving more freedom as they grow. If I'd been DD's friend at 3 I doubt very much we'd be so close now.

If you're out and about - go home./If you're at a cafe - no juice/cake/treat/if you're at home - early bedtime/naughty step

Yes to sanctions - so, go home if behaviour is unacceptable.
But - do not use food/drink/bedtime as punishments. These are all essentials to life and you don't want to teach your child that eating, drinking and sleeping are unpleasant or are things to fight about.

I would say i used a gentle parenting approach with my two. I never used a naughty step to punish them when they misbehaved. (I think to isolate them at a time when they need you most would be cruel). I would remove them from the situation, but stay with them until they were calmer. The eldest needed to be hugged through her tantrum, she was overwhelmed and scared by the ferocity of her feelings. The younger one, did not like to be held, but needed me nearby. I didn't interact with her til she'd calmed down, other than to tell her that i love her and am here for a hug when she is ready. With regard to the walking, i would talk through why you can't carry her, (your bad back) when you are not in that situation, then remind her calmly, but implacably when the situation arises. Also, when you are not in the heat of that moment, you could also ask her for her ideas for an alternative to carrying her. You may be surprised what she can come up with and it gives her some control. It sounds like she needs some control over her life, i would give her choices, limited to what is acceptable/doable. Even the hair bow example, when she had a melt down after she chose the colour...perhaps it was more about going to nursery and missing you than the colour of the bow....maybe you need MORE time to connect, not to punish her by isolating her on the naughty step.

I had a tantrumer too. I did an awful lot of "When ... Then". When you stop crying, then we'll go to the shop. Limiting choices to one or the other helped too, purple bow or blue bow not all the bows.

She had epic 40 minute tantrums that I would just have to wait until they'd finished, while texting my husband as to progress.

I think you may have to have an honest conversation with your DH about her behaviour. Both of you are raising her and you need to agree tactics so she can't play one off against the other. Know if that if Dad says no, Mum will say yes is confusing to a strong willed child. I had many conversations with my husband about our child's behaviour when we would compare notes. Sometimes what works for one parent won't work for the other. We would agree on consequences for bad behaviour and rewards for good. Star charts worked for some things.

Always pick a consequence that works for you as a parent. " Buggy or walk, but I'm not carrying you". It's like a chess game where you're one step ahead because you've decided what the behaviour you want us and what the consequence will be for bad behaviour.

Please talk to your DH about your parenting strategy and present a united front.

Without boundaries they can feel very vulnerable and lost

This, in spades. It is very scary for a small child to think they are in charge. At some level, she knows she is not ready for that because she does not yet have enough experience in the world. She needs to know that you, the competent adult she spends most time with, are firmly in charge and keeping her safe.

Being firm, setting and enforcing clear boundaries and expectations - far from being intimidating to a child, this is deeply reassuring. It tells her that you know what you're about, and she is in safe hands. This gives her the foundation for her security and happiness.

Friends of mine have raved about the book "How to talk so kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk".

Sorry, you're not her friend. Being firm with her and looking her in the eye is making your expectations clear.
From experience, the parents who primarily focus on wanting their child to be their "friend" create a difficult situation. You've already said you have a child who is stopping other people from other people wanting to socialise with you.
You can be loving, kind but also firm.
I'm making an assumption here but she seems to see you as the pushover and you've got to address this.

Children need to feel safe and secure and if a parent isn't sure of how to behave, how to react, isn't 'in charge', if you like, the world becomes a scary place for the child and they understandably act out. Sometimes to a scary degree.
My kids are all grown up now but I remember my son telling me that he appreciated the strict boundaries while growing up. He used to get grounded fairly regularly back in the day for disobedience and coming home late (teens) and the tellings off, the groundings, the firm, unshakeable boundaries he tells me made him feel safe, secure, loved and respected. He mattered and I was showing how much he mattered through my firm but fair parenting.
Set boundaries. Don't excuse poor behaviour. Insist upon manners. Tell them that they are the most important people in your life and because of that, you want to give them every advantage to lead a happy, well balanced, successful life.
Its called socialising and every child has a more satisfying adult life if they're taught that its not just about them, its about everyone else too.

Your DD has more power than a three year old can possibly cope with. If you can be more in-charge, she will find it reassuring - so please don't think that you are being unkind or intimidating if you are firm with her. Although i do think that once a tantrum starts, children can't 'help it', so there is no point in telling them off. Better to take her somewhere and wait for it to burn out.

I'm sorry op, it must be very difficult.

It was interesting what you said about if only tantrums were about wanting things, such as sweets, as that could be easy to fix. Do you mean you'd fix that tantrum by giving in and giving her what she was tantruming about?

I (generally) would never reward a tantrum by giving in, because that can reinforce the idea that tantrum = get what you want. I'm afraid in the hair bow case I'd walk away while she was tantruming and tell her that she could come and find me when she'd calmed down.

Also, in the party example, if it happened during the party, I'd take her to one side, tell her such behaviour was not appropriate and make her sit it out until she calmed down and then (if possible within party activities) take her to apologise to the person who gave her the prize before letting her join in again. If she wouldn't, we would leave (apologising to birthday child's parents as we left). If the prize tantrum happened at the end of the party, I'd tell her that it wasn't acceptable and that when we got home she'd go to her room until she'd say sorry (to me).

As for the walking refusal, I'm afraid I'd get oh to pick her up whether she liked it or not, then take her to the car/home.

I'm not trying to be critical of you, just explaining how I'd handle it. Perhaps I'm a too-harsh parent, but I think it's my main job as a parent to teach my children how to be considerate and well behaved individuals (wherever possible).

The other thing I'd mention is that I'm also a bit judgmental of "soft parenting". We know a couple of children whose parents use this style and their response after their little darling has hit my child with a spade (!) or punched him full on in the face was so wishy washy I was incensed. If the boot was on the other foot I'd have made my child apologise, removed him from the situation and apologised to the parents. These parents did none of this and I vowed never to leave him alone ( i.e. Without me/oh watching closely) with anyone of them again.

Good luck, I hope you find a way forward.

What Music says.

OP I have a friend with an 12 yo version of you dd.

My friend is lovely but because of how strict and harsh her parents were with her she has been and is totally unable to discipline and set boundaries to her strong willed daughter.
Unfortunately her dd is a nightmare and what's worst not very liked because of the tantrums, lies etc. These are bad in a three year ols but absolutely awful in an older child.
This results in the girls not been as welcomed as she could be.

Like I said the mum just cannot enforce any rules or consequences. The lack of these creates confusion and cumning behaviour in saud child. Especially if you and your dh are not in the same step.

I suggest parenting classes for you to learn and understand that you are not hurting your child by setting boundaries, that she will not love you less for it, etc.

I think this is about you and your growing up and your rel with your parents. In trying to fix your past you are doing a disservice to your rel with your dd.

Also I don't feel there's much space for dh and dd to develop a rel. why is that?