To ask you honestly if you think my DD is badly behaved?

[tickettostruggling]

DD is 3, and I used to think a lot of her behaviour was normal for this age. I still think it's normal but I wonder if DD is maybe at an extreme end and I wonder if its my parenting I definitely don't want soft soaping here so please give it to me straight.

• tantrums, I know, normal for this age group but they last such an unbelievably long time and are so forceful. She honestly screams as if she is being murdered. Anything and nothing sets them off, things like buttoning her cardigan the wrong way, putting a blue hair bow in and she wanted purple.

• rudeness (this upsets me most) she is not a polite little girl. We were at a party the other day and she was given a "prize." She responded with a foot stamp and a loud "noooooooo NOOOOOOOOOOO I want THAT one." She couldn't have "that" one so she just kept screaming. It was a gift She has done this before if anyone gives her anything, so embarrassing.

• won't walk anywhere for long periods, she has to be carried and only by me, not DH or one of my friends. I've stood for an hour telling her to walk but she doesn't give up. It's definitely about being close to me not tiredness as alternatives like DH carrying her, standing on the buggy board, don't work.

• sleep, she's always been a bad sleeper and it's not improving, she wakes several times in the night and again it is me she wants.

It sounds awful but it's putting a strain on our relationship as DH thinks (he doesn't say so explicitly but it's obvious) I have "caused" this and I think maybe I have as I was very into the whole gentle parenting thing when she was born. We were at the zoo the other day and DH suddenly walked away with other DC when she was whining and crying. I asked him what was wrong and he said "I wanted to smack her, and I felt awful for wanting to smack her, but I did." I knew what he meant. Obviously I don't want to smack her but I do feel like she's making us all and more importantly herself miserable right now.

Any advice?

Op previously said how DD is kind and caring with other children. To me that says that she has a great foundation for social skills.

It sounds to me that you are still upset about the way you were treated as a child.

However if you want to do the best for this child, you have to stand up to her. What works with one child doesn't always work with another, but there is a clear picture here that this particular child needs strong parenting not gentle parenting.

Your description of the way your husband talks firmly to her sounds entirely appropriate. If she is behaving unreasonably then you need to tell her firmly that it's not acceptable, tell her what you want her to do, and tell her what will happen if she doesn't. Then you MUST follow through.

If you don't then you will be one of those parents at secondary school with an out of control child and too late to do much about it.

I agree with giving her choices to try to minimise the number of times you have to do this, but as you say even when she has made her choice she is playing up.

My advice for you is to watch how your DH deals with her, and copy his methods because it sounds like he has the right approach for her, whist your approach is better for your other children.

Op has also taken advice on board and said she needs to be firmer. Not really in denial.

ticket do you and DD have 1 on 1 time? With out any siblings or DH?

We have lots, Middle as we alternate their time in nursery so I can try and do things like go swimming (which you can't with two.)

I'm not in denial but I feel like there's a bit of projection going on here with people remembering every badly behaved child they have ever known and moulding my little girl to fit that.

My last thought. I'd also say that your dh may have to have a stronger approach that he may normally have out of frustration and to balance it out. Which is unfair on everybody then.
Start slowly op, you can do it.

I think they are just showing you how it could go. Not how she is.

With my strogwilled dd I think she could have been quite a handful left to her own devices, frankly. She'll never be as chilled and zen like her sister but she is learning to be herself without causing hurt to herself and ithers.

People will be judging you for this constant giving in - and it's sad watching a grown up allowing themselves to be treated this way*

^ this

I posted above about my friend and I and how it nearly ruined our friendship. It was me admitting that I hated watch her put her own happiness and self respect aside in order not to upset her kids that rectified it somewhat. I told her what an amazing person she was, and a great friend but that I could not and would not sit back and watch her treat herself so badly and as second class to her children. I told her she was entitled to an opinion and to have feelings.
She's by no way strong even now - still allows her children far more control over her life than most - but she's learnt to put boundaries in and I believe her children are so much happier for it.

But you are also projecting your own childhood onto your little girl and parenting her not to make her secure and ultimately less stressed but to 'fix' what went wrong with your own parents. Your daughter is her own person, you are compensating for mistakes that you haven't even made!

Very Bad behaviour at a party should result in her being taken home immediately. Carry her out if necessary

I used to have a phrase with DC1, to use when she was tantruming. It was along the lines of 'you know that doesn't work with me'. Uttered in the blandest of bland tones. I would also leave her to her tantrum and not interfere unless she was doing anything that could endanger her. When she'd finished I would then carry on doing whatever it was that I was doing before the tantrum.

I think the fact that I wasn't feeding the tantrum helped a lot. Also, consistent messages and boundaries and funnily enough not giving her too much choice. On some days, particularly when tired, she really couldn't cope with any choices so I just made them for her. I think it made her feel safer.

Anyway, just thought I'd share my coping mechanisms in the hope that you might find something useful. Good luck OP, she sounds challenging but also lovely.

OP I have only read your op and not much else, but just wanted to say it's really tough being a parent and you have my utmost sympathy. Am sure you will get lots of good advice here.

On a lighthearted note, it doesn't seem like your DD will be walked over as adult!

No, that's for sure! :)

I wouldn't be so sure.

I totally get what you are saying about your own childhood, and your desire to do better with your own DC.

Someone on MN once posted something along the lines of "is the goal to have a biddable child, or bring up a successful adult?", which really struck a chord with me. Girls, in particular, are often taught to just put up and shut up.

Your DD has really strong emotions, and she is entitled to them. She needs to learn how to deal with them, and part of that is you naming them. Shocker and ledkr have both given good advice about this. Another good resource is the book How to talk so your kids will listen, and listen so they will talk.

In the example of the blue or purple bow, your DD is perhaps frustrated that she has to choose. Name that emotion. "Oh, I can see you're very frustrated that having the blue bow means you can't have the purple bow." Talk it through with her, so perhaps she can come to a solution. Her solution might be that she wears both bows, or that she wears the blue one now, and the other another time, or whatever. But don't give her the solution - let her come to it, herself.

Also, remember, all behaviour is for a reason. If she seems angry, it's because she is. It's just that she's not articulating her anger. Perhaps she's displacing it. She's acting angry about the bow, but maybe she really feels angry that you are now spending more time with her younger sibling, or something else.

Incidentally, "gentle parenting" is not not supposed to be parenting with no boundaries, and anyone that thinks they are doing "gentle parenting" but is really just giving in to their child's every whim, is not following the philosophy correctly.

I've always used what I would describe as "gentle parenting" but that didn't mean no consequences for bad behaviour. The "time out step" has worked really well for my son (now 5) so that's what I used for bad behaviour at home. Out and about it was immediate removal from whatever we were doing and going home. To me the gentleness came from no physical punishments and no raised voices. I explain thoroughly why the behaviour is unacceptable and why the consequence is necessary. My son was never a big tantramer though so I didn't really have to deal with that.
I'm always very clear about what the consequences will be for actions and I ALWAYS follow through on them, ALWAYS. By having a few consequences up your sleeve it's easier to not over react with consequences you can't follow through, like cancelling Xmas or similar. Parenting is not easy but I do think firm but fair boundaries are he way to go and don't go against gentle parenting.

Your dd has formed a habit of getting your attention by having a tantrum.

It probably started with one tantrum, she thought she got the desired result, so she tried it again. The more she used this tactic, the more ingrained in her it has become until she started using it in less appropriate situations and holding out for longer because she isn't using any other tactics to get the desired result. It has become her almost instinctive fall back option.

So, I think you need to explain to her when she is calm how she can communicate what she wants in a different way without crying. Tell her that crying will make you instantly decide she is not going to get whatever it is she wants. Tell her this when she is totally calm and not tantruming. Explain that if she cries because she is hurt then that is different and ofcourse you'll comfort her. But if she starts having a tantrum you will not give her what she wants no matter what it is.

Then, explain how she can talk to you about what she wants rather than crying and that you are much more likely to respect her. Explain that sometimes you can't give her what she wants if it is not suitable. You can explain at the time why this is: eg it's hurting mummy's back carrying you or you need to get some excercise or I bet you can't get to the park gates before me or in 30 seconds etc(a race always encourages them to walk - they can't help wanting to win)

I know she's only 3 but you need to start explaining to her that a tantrum is no longer going to work. It will be hard for her to stop going into tantrum mode to begin with as it is a habit she has formed. Now you can form your own habit of repeating what you told her earlier 'A tantrum is not going to work. Calm down and then mummy will talk to you when you are calm' and then wait for as long as it takes for her to calm down. When she is calm, she can then talk to you about what the issue is. Then you can explain why you are / aren't going to do what she wants.

It's going to be tricky to begin with but just remember it's like any habit - you break it by forming a new one. Repeat repeat repeat until she learns a new behaviour. And as she is bright she will.

I agree with others and yourself that your own experience has made you want to treat your child with more respect. That's a good thing imo. But you have to teach her that throwing a tantrum is not respectful and doesn't get what she wants, but calm talking may get her the desired result.

First of all, you are a superb and very brave mummy to open yourself up to potential criticism. Children's behaviour and how 'normal' they are is a huge source of worry to parents.

She sounds like a very strong willed young lady, a trait that handled with care (and by care I don't mean kid gloves), could be one of her best traits as an adult.

One of the most telling things about your post is the lack of any mention of discipline. All children need firm, clear boundaries as it makes them feel secure.
3 year olds can understand alot more than we give them credit for.

Set up some clear rules in the house, in her room, in the car or anywhere else she might need reminding. Review them every day. 3-5 clear rules and very simple. e.g. We say please and thank you. We listen to adults. We follow instructions.

Then have a positive outcome e.g. stickers etc (get on whatever she likes such as Peppa or Midnight Garden). For following a rule she gets a sticker. You won't need to do this forever, but it will remind you to always go for the positive first.

When not following a rule she first gets a warning. Get down onto her level, lower your tone of voice and clearly tell her that he behaviour is not ok or rude and she needs to stop otherwise, she will have to go home/ not get a juice, lose her toy, not get a prize etc. Reiterate the choice ' If you sit on your bottom and stop crying, we can have the juice and cake, or we can go home. Go home, or stop crying and have juice and cake. (Put the good choice second) I will give you 10 seconds to decide. Move away from her (not far, just another room or a couple of metres). At the end of 10 secs go back and ask her which choice. If she carries on with the crying, do not engage but take her straight out and home. Pop her on a chair to think at home and then when she is calm, talk it through, what wasn't ok, and ask for an apology. Re-iterate your expectations. This applies to pretty much everything.

1. Voice tone MUST be lower and firm (practise in the mirror until you dont feel silly).
2. Always give a choice the behaviour you want, or the consequence. (Never more than 2)
3. Don't cajole, reason etc it just feeds into it.
4. Always praise the positives, and any positive as soon as she makes the good choice.
5. ALWAYS make sure you follow through. If you say it then mean it!

I think most three year olds are barely more than savages. I have a three year old, extremely strong willed and confident DS. He can be the loveliest, most caring selfless little boy but some of his tantrums .

A few months ago he went through a bad tantrumming phase, he was rude to me in our local grocery store as I wouldn't get him a family size pack of crisps . He threw himself on the floor and started thrashing like a beached shark screaming that he wasn't moving until he could have the crisps. I calmly told him that he wasn't having them and that he could thrash around all day if he wanted, I still wouldn't be changing my mind.
I know everyone in the store and the manager actually bought me a chair and a coffee so that I could sit and be comfy finished his shark act. .
Forty five hours by the feel of it minutes later he stopped and looked at me. I asked him if he'd finished and when he said yes sheepishly I calmly explained to him that behaving that way will get him nowhere and that he still wouldn't be getting the crisps. He also had to sit in the trolley at the next store rather than helping me push it (which he loves) as I told him that he needs to show me he could behave nicely in stores.

I do think behaviour needs to have consequences, and with DS we've found that showing him bad behaviour gets him nowhere is the quickest way to nip it in the bud. He also does not get away with it, no matter how inconvenient it is to leave a party, or enforce whatever the consequence is I think its very important to follow through every single time.

I also meant to say that I made DS a glitter calm down shaker. If he starts getting angry or frustrated he shakes it vigorously and then watches the glitter settle again. I explain to him that everyone gets frustrated/angry at times but we need to express it in a healthy fashion.
I do find that managing his expectations works well too, so if we have to do a boring errand I tell him in advance that its going to be boring and frustrating but that we need to be patient and then we can get bit done as quickly as possible and move onto something more interesting.

Thanks :)

She does tantrum but they tend to happen when she is tired. And when she is tired threatening her with losing her juice or toy does not help. She doesn't hear the "if" part - she doesn't hear "IF you carry on with X you will lose Y" - she just hears "you will lose Y" and goes straight into a high pitched whine "nooooooOOOOOO."

She's not exactly socially inappropriate - the party was I agree. Mostly though her difficulties are with whining that becomes screaming.

She's so easy at nursery. She has made friends and settled beautifully and plays so happily with the other children.

I don't think it is something you have or haven't done, children are just different, some are easier than others.

My 3 years old is similar BTW.

Oh gosh this sounds hard.
I'm another one who found a cuddle in a tantrum worked (it was me tantrumming!!!) it's all I wanted, my emotions got the better of me and I couldn't express it, I just needed a cuddle and reassurance to calm down. I remember feeling it
But I get that won't help for all kids.

When your out with others one thing that could work is "carry on misbehaving and the other dc will carry on with dad or friend, me and you will sit in the car until they've finished since you clearly can't behave".
Car time is as boring as you can make it. Not a 1:1 reward. It's hard if your on your own.
Make threats and follow through. So only threaten what you can and will follow through. If you've said it, do it.
Praise the good, however small.
Don't use the "that upsets mummy" line. I've heard that used it doesn't work as in that moment they don't care, and if they do it's only because it's given them a power -so the trantrums worked, you feel as shit as they do.

It will get better, you've just got to find what works for her.