To ask you honestly if you think my DD is badly behaved?

[tickettostruggling]

DD is 3, and I used to think a lot of her behaviour was normal for this age. I still think it's normal but I wonder if DD is maybe at an extreme end and I wonder if its my parenting I definitely don't want soft soaping here so please give it to me straight.

• tantrums, I know, normal for this age group but they last such an unbelievably long time and are so forceful. She honestly screams as if she is being murdered. Anything and nothing sets them off, things like buttoning her cardigan the wrong way, putting a blue hair bow in and she wanted purple.

• rudeness (this upsets me most) she is not a polite little girl. We were at a party the other day and she was given a "prize." She responded with a foot stamp and a loud "noooooooo NOOOOOOOOOOO I want THAT one." She couldn't have "that" one so she just kept screaming. It was a gift She has done this before if anyone gives her anything, so embarrassing.

• won't walk anywhere for long periods, she has to be carried and only by me, not DH or one of my friends. I've stood for an hour telling her to walk but she doesn't give up. It's definitely about being close to me not tiredness as alternatives like DH carrying her, standing on the buggy board, don't work.

• sleep, she's always been a bad sleeper and it's not improving, she wakes several times in the night and again it is me she wants.

It sounds awful but it's putting a strain on our relationship as DH thinks (he doesn't say so explicitly but it's obvious) I have "caused" this and I think maybe I have as I was very into the whole gentle parenting thing when she was born. We were at the zoo the other day and DH suddenly walked away with other DC when she was whining and crying. I asked him what was wrong and he said "I wanted to smack her, and I felt awful for wanting to smack her, but I did." I knew what he meant. Obviously I don't want to smack her but I do feel like she's making us all and more importantly herself miserable right now.

Any advice?

Can I just say, though, I would NEVER allow DD to hurt another child, ever, and nor would she. She really isn't like that (neither am I!) I know people are just giving examples but I might be a pushover when it's aimed against me but I would never smile timidly while my child hurt someone or something.

Yes but logically if she hits you and you don't deal with it odds are she probably will hit another child (or another adult) at some point, why wouldn't she? What will you do then and it will be very confusing for her if your reaction is completely different.

I agree with derxa - this isn't gentle parenting, it's fearful parenting.

I also agree lack of sleep may be part of the problem- I'd try and tackle that. I also think you have to let go of this friend mindset and toughen up a bit for her own sake.

With the hair bow in the morning I would - like someone else said - bend down hold her by shoulders or wrists and say firmly "you do not hit" and then I would ignore until she stopped. I would never change the bow in that situation.

OP she sounds very similar to my very sweet and clever 3yo. You're at a crossroads. Your DD is testing to see what she can get away with so don't let her become a brat. We've been working really hard with DD recently and things are massively improving. It's all about consequences and reminding her about the consequences.

When I do time out I stay with my 2 year old and with cuddles and counting he does calm down and I can get him to say sorry for whacking me (as he did today!). My other child time out doesn't seem to work and it just makes him crosser, so I do think it depends on the child.

What AnneEyhtMeyer says about wanting to be her friend. You need to think here of the older sense of 'friend' as someone who is on your side, someone who acts in your best interests.

I'm not a very authoritarian parent by any means, but I am most certainly not my children's friend (in the modern sense). Sometimes the older ones mistake my enjoyment of sharing laughs and jokes with them as a blurring of the boundaries and become disrespectful, and then I put them pretty sharply right. I prefer not to, but in some circumstances I am entirely happy to say 'because I am the parent here and my parental authority is in your best long-term interests'. That's OK. Don't fall into the trap of thinking it isn't.

She is screaming and whining even when she has your full attention because she has all the power in your relationship and no idea at the age of 3, what to do with it!
You won't crack down and take control, setting out what is and what is not acceptable and backing it up with boundaries, so she has every option there is, available to her, causing confusion and mayhem in her 3 year old head!

My Gentle Parenting friend's son is a miserable, whinging, angry child for the same reason.

I think even jokingly suggestion she was injected with awkwardness shows a reluctance to take responsibility. you are being unnecessarily rude where as OP has been very gracious in taking on advice. Actually though OP is correct - some children are born much more awkward and stubborn than others. OP has two other children who don't display this behaviour. Some kids are much more challenging than others. OP clearly is taking responsibility for it so there's absolutely no need for your nasty attitude.

Apologies if I made you think that I'm trying to make your thread all about me

You've had some excellent advice. In light of the fact that you have another younger child, I would try to make sure that she's still getting one on one time with you, and reward good behaviour as has been suggested. This could be another possible factor in her behaviour.

My last piece of advice (at risk of making it all about me again!) is to try to present a united front with your DH. My parents were similar; my DM much "gentler" that DF. My DB used to play them off against each other and it caused an awful strain between my parents as they each felt the other undermined them. Right, I'm off elsewhere as you requested

Oh and just dragging her out of places kicking and screaming. I've done my fair share of that recently

You can still get her to open up to you when she's older without being her 'friend'.

It's so difficult with children who are strong willed.
Everyone always jumps to the conclusion that it's bad parenting. This is not always the case - I've seen this with my niece and nephew. My nephew responds well to discipline and is generally compliant, my niece is completely different and has a similar temperament to my daughter. Before my niece was born, my sister had lots of opinions on all the things I was doing wrong. Now she has a child who is similar, she sees that it's not that clear cut.
I do think that children around age 3 can get really frustrated with themselves and will usually lash out at the one they are closest to.
Really hope you can find something that works in the meantime to make life more manageable.
The behaviour combined with the sleep thing do make me wonder about ASD. It may be worth speaking to your health visitor. Good luck.

Just a suggestion looking at the convo you posted. Re this:
"I can't carry you, DD! You're a big girl now with big strong legs! Show me how well you can walk!"

I (as a previously stubborn child myself) would hear that you've said you can't followed by ordering me to do something. Saying something like "can you do dinosaur steps? Look mummy can do dinosaur steps..." that sort of thing would have worked better on me.

About the 'friends with your child' thing.

I was a pretty old-school strict parent. (I hope I'm a better GP!) I didn't want to be friends with my children, I was their mother. So there was little coaxing, it was more instructions to be followed. And I didn't have it easy either - strong-wills run in my family!

They are grown up now and I still feel the same way, I have friends, they have friends. They are my children, I am their mother.

However, they speak to me frequently. I see them frequently. I am involved in my DGC's lives. They tell me things, they come to me if they need help and I'm happy to provide it where I can.

My point being, treating children as children doesn't preclude a good relationship when they are older. Whatever you do, as long as you love them (and good discipline is part of love imo) it will be okay in the end.

I have a 3 year old and the only part I identify with is the tantrums if she can't get her own way. They tend to only happen at home and tend to stem from her frustration at not being able to understand or articulate something. Only had 1 at Nursery, but as an example that was because the group were asked who's birthday it was this month and she put her hand up and was heartbroken and couldn't understand it wasn't hers, hers had been a week ago, but she wanted another one!.

Mine will walk everywhere, but hasn't had a choice since she was 2 and her sibling came along and I didn't buy a double buggy! If she's a bit whiny then I result to bribes, e.g. If we walk nicely to shops and back we can have some chocolate buttons. Definitely reward good behaviour.

For tantrums I take her to her bedroom put her on her bed and let her scream and thrash about. Once she's calmed down we have a talk, and a cuddle and she had to say sorry.

She's a very good sleeper, worsen out by lots of active play, walking, Nursery etc. but the tantrums are worse when she's tired. Has recently dropped her afternoon nap at Nursery so evenings have been a bit fraught recently.

But overall she's polite, well behaved and can be reasoned with. She's much better if we go out for the day or have a planned activity. Naughtiness sets in if she's bored at home.

I want to say to my friend, "Stop giving him the choice! He isn't equipped to handle it...that's YOUR jon!" but I suspect it would go down like a sack of shit, so I don't.
I feel sorry for both of them but the fault lies with mum.

Anecdotes aren't making it about you :) my objection is (and I don't mean just this thread; it can be a bit of a MN theme!) when somebody says a thread is making THEM feel a certain way - this then makes the thread about their feelings and not the actual issue.

Thank you, IAm, our eldest is the easiest child ever! It is easy to think "oh, that's our great parenting!" but he's just a chilled dude.

*job

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but can suggest, (as has been said) there absolutely has to be consequences to her bad behaviour. The problem is, I hear over and over again....if you don't stop whatever I'll take you home and you'll go to bed. Result, kid carries on screeching/whatever, then the pleading and bribery starts!! My maxim is; if you threaten it, carry it out to the letter, if you promise it, you move heaven and earth to produce it,
If you don't follow through, why would any child stop the bad behaviour, they know you won't carry out your threats!

When I said you I mesnt that dd is using you as a punchbag for all her emotions which can only come out as anger.

My dd is the same (and me too): she seems unable to understand what she feels, tiredness, fristration, anger etc and transforms them all into anger and tantrum. It's a fire that lights up inside and devours them. My dd was sometimes at 3yo a danger to herself, throwing herself in the middle of a zebra crossing when refusing to walk or hurt herself when we were trying to calm her down.

I remember calling it the fire and she agreed, and liked the image, and trying to tell her to recognise when it was starting to flare up. And why.
This also can help you as I realised that most of my dd's tantrums are due to hunger and tiredness. It's like a switch. Once she, and you, recognise that this is the problem you can give solutions.

With my dd, now older, still goes like this.

Dd acting rudely. Refusing to do something etc

Me "are you hungry"
Dd "NO!"
Me "have simething to eat. I'll make smthng nice"
Dd" NO I said I am not hungry!"
Me "come on"
Dd "NO"

Then depending how far she is it can go two ways

1. "ohh ok I'll have a bite. Just a bite"
   She then scoffs the whole thing. Smiles. Laugh. And then we can talk about it.

2. "I said No" and keeping being rude, annoying everyone etc (in other words trying to make us feel as rotten as she feels. To transfer onto us her unhappiness).
   I then have my tiger voice and give two choices, she either eats (in this scenarion, it could be something else) or goes to her room and calms down and thinks things through and gives us peace).
   If she is too far to accept that she needs help she'll go to her room. After a bit she'll calm down and asks to eat and says sorry.
   And we have a cuddle.

Sorry if long but a spirited child is hard. Having to restrain mine on an aeroplane because she was so tired she was kicking and screaming was not nice. Same in prams wtc. Once her wrist got dislicated in holding her from walking into a road. Prob all aged 3.

I see it as her inability to deal with the emotions that fill her up. She cannot stay with an unconfortable feeling, whatever that is, and has to act on it and lash out. I think she wanted other to help her.

(Ps: at times when I feel the same it may go a bit pear shaped )

DD2 was really hard work at 3. She was a tantrummer and wouldn't walk. She hated parties though and would freeze and shy away from any adults.

Wrt the tantrums I left her to it on her bed. Any other interaction made it worse and prolonged the tantrum. DD2 would often scream for around 40 minutes then fall asleep. She always got a cuddle afterwards though.

A choice of two options helped avoid some tantrums. Others were due to her just being a tired irrational 3yo! She got much better by 4.5 I'd say.

I totally get the walking thing. DD2 would cling on to my leg, I'd extricate her, and repeat all the way home . It took ages! Distraction didn't work at all. My options were to carry her or put her in the buggy. I went with the buggy. She was always worse in winter too as she hated the cold. She grew out of it when she started in reception.

She's like a different child now (6) so there is hope OP.

My DD3 (10) was just like your DD OP and I got lots of unwanted advice from friends. I knew what I was doing, 2 older children, childcare trained, taught parenting courses, so I knew all the strategies. Some children do not respond to any of these strategies and pp who say do this and this WILL happen just ignore them, they have no idea how your DD will respond to their suggestions

We had boundaries, carried through with any consequences and DD3 ate well, slept well, no trauma in her life, lots of love, fresh air, appropriate activities, etc,etc. Like your DD she was never physically aggressive towards other kids and the behaviour was generally only with me though my very lovely childminder struggled with her at times.

I'm a single parent so no back up available. I would talk to your DP and come up with a plan. Although behaviour strategies didn't work with DD3 I still implemented them because the alternative would have been as some pp described with out of control children that they know. DD1 was very similar to DD3 and she turned into a lovely teenager. I would have thought my parenting was to blame except that I've got DD2 who has behaved like an angel for the past 16 years

OP don't think of the opposite of gentle parenting as tough, but as strong.

Strong parents lead the way. They can be relied on. They make DC feel safe. But like anyone in control there will be times when the troops don't like it. However, these are the times you need to be strongest.

Apologies for typos etc, writing at speed on phone

How she treats you and how she behaves with you is how she will, at some point down the line, treat others. this is why you have to sort it out and reasonably quickly. certainly before she goes to school.

One of my children just couldn't cope with the "options" thing. if I said, you can either walk or go in the buggy board, they basically couldn't ever decide. so sometimes different children do need different strategies. this dc even now prefers not to have choices!

I would restrict giving choices personally. When its something like what they wear it would be along the lines of do you want a bow? if cant decide then that's a no and you move on.

when out and about it would be you are going to walk now. if your dd sits down and wont walk, scoop her up, put her in the pram take her home and sit her on the thinking stair.

all of her bad actions have to have immediate consequences and you have to know in advance what you are going to do so that there is no hesitation on your part.

I also do struggle with this idea that a child will only let one parent usually mum do XX for them. if she wakes in the night, refuse to get up.

only you can break this cycle. I suspect you have been giving in for quite a while for a quiet life and who can blame you really.

as for the going to bed and waking in the night, controlled crying. she is old enough to understand whats expected.

only the two parents are going to crack this and you need to for her sake really. its being tough on her now so that you and she don't have to deal with the consequences in the years to come.

I do feel people are leaping on the "friend" thing a bit. It's going to be really difficult to explain what I mean but I will try.

I loved my parents as a child and they adored me. But they were very into the whole "united front" thing, not just them but other adults. I felt very frustrated a lot of the time as sometimes I WAS treated unfairly or badly. I couldn't tell them. I know this is par for the course for children once but I was really unkindly treated by a lot of adults and I never felt I could talk to them because it would just be flipped around onto me.

Likewise my mum in particular had a temper and she would sometimes flip at me when I'd done nothing. I know a few times my dad spoke to her about it but he never stuck up for me in front of me. I guess some people think that's good parenting but I just felt lonely and unhappy.

I'm not sure what point I'm making except I want to be on DDs "side", you know? I'm just not sure I'm doing it right.

Your DD sounds like my youngest DD. She didn't sleep through the night until she was 4 and now she is 11, her sleep is still dreadful, often awake at all hours despite being put to bed at a reasonable time.

She had an assessment for ASD last year and we get to go back to paediatrics in a couple of months to see what they say. The report picked up on things I hadn't noticed (and I notice a lot of things that I wouldn't consider 'normal').

My DD never reacted well to a time out space or seat. She just kicked off even more. The other day, having lost her water bottle for school, dp and I picked up a replacement. She was utterly distraught. Sobbing and just overwhelmed and I am still not sure why! She was just so upset that the other one had got lost (although typically it's now bloody turned up) and she just couldn't articulate in words why. She's very bright but her feelings overwhelm her and she can't articulate them at all. So it manifests itself in a meltdown or tears or just kicking a wall.

I did a one to one parenting course which was bloody amazing. Taught me so much and despite me already having lots of things in place (which I had learned through just parenting her) I also learned other ways to deal with her and how to avoid things escalating very quickly (although sometimes, as in your case, it's just instant).

I have been taking my girl to the GP since she was 4. I strongly suspect she has Aspergers and despite being fobbed off endlessly I finally got that assessment which strongly suggest she does have it. I just want to know so that I can help put in place things to help her at school etc.

I have no advice as such because all our children are so very different and react in different ways. My DD really can't cope with not being the best (not against anyone else, it's a perfection thing for her) so I try to avoid anything which could trigger a meltdown but she does swimming, martial arts (great for learning self control) and kayaking. She is very clever, very artistic and a very sweet girl with a wonderful sense of humour. But bloody hell, she's hard work sometimes.