Transing a 4 year old

[ShadowChancellor]

On Monday, all the children at my kids school were taught about being transgender because the parent of a reception kid have decided that X is actually Y and are now sending their kid in as the opposite sex and have changed their name.

According to my kid they were shown a video that was all about how if you were a boy and liked girl things and girl clothes you were a girl and it was all very positive.

No parents were told before this happened. We only found out when the kids came out of school on Monday and told us.

AIBU to a) think that transing a kid at 4 years old is more to do with the parents not liking the fact that their kid prefers girls toys to boys toys and b) that the other parents should've been told before they showed our kids this film and promoted it all in school.

Its caused a lot of confusion with the younger kids who think you can change whether you are a boy or girl just by wishing it and didn't mention at all all of the problems that it can cause.

I have found it quite hard speaking to some of my friends, who are ordinary people who in real life may not have read or thought about this topic much. In fact one friend who had very traditional views towards some things, seems to me much more 'liberal' about trans issues.

So I have found talking about this topic difficult because people get so caught up in things and imagine all 'trans identifying' kids are the same.

I think they think all kids who express concerns over 'gender' are genuine trans kids who are totally the same as any other opposite sex child, they just look a bit different.

The reality is the kids are all as valuable and wonderful as each other, no debate needed.

But is it loving and kind to start children so early on a journey that might lead to a lifetime of drugs and surgery?

I am not judging any parents, I have no idea how I would deal with this. But the people I talk to are not people who have children who are trans or gender fluid etc.

I must emphasis that I think what people decide as adults is their choice.

Anyway, this leads me to how do we discuss with people who have all kinds of views and some might say 'myths' and who are totally not receptive to thinking of anything in a different light?

I've tried to be open, to hear both sides of the 'debate', to get to know trans adults, mostly on line. Many trans people are against self identification for gender but many people I know who I talk to about this, who are mostly unconnected to this topic have formulated views that seem to embrace what I would call trans myths, e.g. that a child will instinctively know what 'gender' they are. They might not even articulate it but I feel it comes across.

They have quite set views already and have made being pro trans about being pro self-identity (without really even knowing what that means!).

Anyone got any tips on how to debate and not make people disengage?

Personally, I've learnt that less is more, not too many words, not too much information. And always be nice and kind because when we really argue aggressively we never really change the others's view.

I just saw this on line. Fascinating.

www.skepticalscience.com/docs/Debunking_Handbook.pdf

It's all about debunking myths. Not reinforcing them. Which we can sometimes do (reinforce them) accidentally while trying to debunk them. Worth a read.

"The solution [to debunking myths] is to keep your content lean, mean and easy to read. Making your content easy to process means using every tool available. Use simple language, short sentences, subheadings and paragraphs. Avoid dramatic language and derogatory comments that alienate people. Stick to the facts."

Very interesting.

italian

You could just talk about gender dysphoria. As a condition. Steer away from the 'born in the wrong body' narrative. Because it indicates there is a 'right' body.

Gender dysphoria is real and crippling. If a child is not displaying symptoms of something that is crippling to the point of intense distress, they don't have it.

www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/gender-dysphoria

Datsun good point. I think that although I am worried for women's rights, and I am sad for young women confused about their bodies and identities, it is the children I feel most worried for.

Any good links, anyone? please?

That's insane. My child would stop attending that school the next day.

Italian there are a plethora of blogs/websites associated with this, I think it is important to be open minded and try to read both sides of the debate. There seems to be an increasing number of parents who are questioning and that are very concerned where this is all leading to, but having read so many different views I am certain you will quickly realise it is a minefield.

BoneyBackJefferson

GahBuggerit

I cant believe the parents are allowed to carry on tbh. its child abuse. pure and simple

Who is going to report it to whom?

^I would hope and consider it the responsibility of the school to contact social services, this is just ridiculous and the fact the video was shown without any pre-warning to parents is utterly irresponsible.

I would be writing to the Chair of Governors, I really would.

It seems crazy that parents can chose for their child to opt out of sex education but not have the option with trans education

The child is too young and vulnerable to make such a big decision.

doubleshotespresso

The issue is that all of the people that you have mentioned have a duty to protect transitioning pupils and as part of the PCSHE curriculum show the videos and views of supporting groups.

The one thing that you may get the school on is not informing parents, but even then no-one will do much.

The issue is that all of the people that you have mentioned have a duty to protect transitioning pupils and as part of the PCSHE curriculum show the videos and views of supporting groups.

The one thing that you may get the school on is not informing parents, but even then no-one will do much.

^Surely to god all the people I have mentioned have a duty to protect this poor 4 year old who is nowhere close to being old/mature enough to make such a sweeping decision? Before they concern themselves with indulging the parents who are clearly abusing their child?

And damn right other parents should have been informed- this is not normal and parents should at the very least have been given some information and some kind of option on this.

Oh. And I would make sure something was done, all this stuff being feted as normal at the age of 4 is very dangerous and ill-informed.

I've been doing a lot of reading about trans issues over the past 2 or 3 years now, since I first came across women being called transphobic and cissexist for saying that men had penises and women didn't.

I'm now in my late 40s and was very much a tomboy growing up, and certainly for a large part of my childhood I wished I was a boy because boys had more freedom and more opportunities in life. I grew up on a farm and wanted to be a farmer - my father laughed at me. I'm still pissed off about that. Until my mid to late teens I was regularly mistaken for a boy, and was pleased about that. If I was a teenager now, I would almost certainly have fallen victim to the transactivists - I would have insisted on social transitioning and then medical transitioning. And what a massive, massive, horrible and life-limiting disaster that would have been for me!

My son is diagnosed with Asperger's when he was 7 years old. He started talking about wanting to be a girl when he was 3 years old. I asked him what he thought the differences were between boys and girls and he said that girl had pink bits on their shoes! He regularly complained that it was unfair that girls could wear trousers or pretty dresses, but that boys didn't have that choice. He loved dressing up in princess costumes, wanted jewellery, make-up, perfume, all things pink and sparkly ....

We had many, very interesting conversations about sex and gender, about stereotypes and expectations. I told him that sex was fixed and couldn't change, but that gender roles - what we expect of men and women - do vary across time and place.

My son is still my son. He's 15 now, and has passed through the pink sparkly phase.

Last year, we watched the CBBC programme, "I am Leo" about a girl called Lily who at the age of 9 told her mother that she was a boy. This was based on Lily not liking dresses or having long hair. My son kept pausing the programme to comment, not favourably, on what we were watching. He was particularly taken aback by Leo's negative comments about her "awful body" and could see how that might make girls feel about their bodies. At the end he was quiet for a bit, then said he was glad he had a mother who talked to him about sex and gender, and didn't do what Lily/Leo's mother had done, and just go along with it.

It's all very sad, frightening, and very regressive. The trans agenda is based on and perpetuates misogyny and homophobia, and I cannot comprehend how and why so many people, well-intentioned people, go along with it, and actively support it. It is so damaging, and in years to come we are going to see and hear from so many young people who's lives have been blighted by this.

whose not who's!

doubleshotespresso

I am not going to argue with you not because I won't but because I can't, I agree with what you (and others) are saying.

but there is a very powerful Trans lobby at the moment, and it is forming a lot of policies that schools have to abide by. Many of them are contradictory and many impinge on the rights of others.

I simply do not understand when all this became fine for parents to make such ridiculous decisions for their too young children.

Or why everybody else is supposed to go along with it all and not question this. Utter lunacy

I don't want to go off-topic, but I've been thinking about other angles on this issue.

I have some very religious work colleagues, who I know wouldn't approve of this. Although their reasons for not approving wouldn't come from a feminist viewpoint.

If their kids were at this school, they would complain. For various reasons, I think their complaints would hold more weighting.

Therefore, I think we need to get other groups, not just feminists, involved in this.

I think you are about to reach #peaktrans doubleshotespresso

BoneyBackJefferson yes I do agree with you completely. My point was this exactly as you have stated; schools and authorities are all buckling under pressure to be seen as progressive or whatever the word is and the cost of this long-term is completely unknown.

This will cause goodness knows what kind of problems for these children later in life and the notion that everybody should just roll over and accept this as normal is ridiculous.

My two year old loves broccoli on a Tuesday but the sight of it on a Saturday might just send her into oblivion. I am guessing that by the time she reaches 4 years old she still won't be quite fully prepared to decide on a whim that she would like to suddenly become a boy. If she did, I would not be instructing her school or rushing out to buy her a "boy" wardrobe....

Soulsearcher- apologies but I really don't understand your post, what do you mean?

Peak trans is when you realise that this is all nonsense, and damaging, regressive nonsense at that.

Long long thread and seriously discombobulating. Only penny-worth I want to add is that I know personally a boy who, as soon as he could speak, declared he was a girl (a mermaid was his other choice). He was adamant and wanted long hair and to wear his sister's clothes and felt he was a GIRL inside. His parents were bloody brilliant and so were the SS and GP. He saw a counsellor for a time and was allowed to dress as he pleased. I'm a bit out of touch now as he's the younger bro of DD's friend whose grown up now so I don't hear much, but last I did he was 11/12 at a mixed school, predominantly girls, and less feminine than he had been though they feel he may be gay. Rather a good example of how to handle a conflicted child without all the hype perhaps.

Seeingadistance-many thanks, that was going to keep me awake... Yep-I think I am most certainly there. ;-)

Seeingadistance your post is very moving. My dd is (used to be even more so) definitely not a girlie girl and I really worried she would fall foul of the whole fucking trans agenda crap. I am so worried that other people will be 'diagnosing' each others kids. It is so sad.

I know that the intentions early on were good, I feel they were; safety and stuff for trans kids.

But the growing, burgeoning numbers now must convince even the professionals that this is not a normal phenomenon. This could not be sustained without the Internet. I do wonder if this is partly behind the whole self-identification thing, that the professionals do not want to mediate and gate keep, people will just be left to fend for themselves.

SoulSearcher I've read a lot, probably too much for my own good!

I've always tried to be open-minded. I recognize it is not a simple issue. This is one reason I quite like talking about this subject with people who have read a lot, or thought a lot about it, or people who have experienced things and can teach me something.

I actually find myself sometimes somewhat on the fence. In that for some males to be able to transition to live their lives presenting as female can be a very positive thing. If they would be very effeminate males and would find life very difficult to live their lives as men, I would want every support for them. For females it is a bit different since lesbian culture is very accepting of all manner or lesbians and supportive (so i am told) so a very masculine looking female will not be ostracized from the lesbian community in the way I am told a very effeminate male can be from the gay male community.

But transitioning children is not a panacea for these issues and I am really horrified that choices for these children, and their families, almost seem to be non-existant!

BoneyBackJefferson " but there is a very powerful Trans lobby at the moment, and it is forming a lot of policies that schools have to abide by. Many of them are contradictory and many impinge on the rights of others."

This is so true.

Just look at the USA, where schools are told trans students, boys with penises must be allowed to use the locker rooms and change alongside girls! How would these adult women who allow this like to go and shower and change alongside their male colleagues?

Twogoats it has begun, religious groups and feminist groups working together. It is interesting.However, I do think (even as a Christian) that this argument must be worked on logic and biology, not on religious freedoms.

Interesting, the trans ideology is basically like a religion, it is based on belief, without necessarily any concrete evidence.

chatnanny definitely better to keep things neutral, your friend did well.