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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the abortion rate will increase after April this year?

930 replies

RocketQueenP · 21/02/2017 17:07

When the new rules on tax credits / universal credit come in ie when no one can claim benefit be it top up or otherwise for any more than 2 children

Sadly I am helping a good friend cope who has just had an early abortion, she did not plan the pregnancy and one of the main reasons is she and her DH are low earners/ They already have 2 at school, and won't be able to afford to have this baby. She is devastated and has admitted they could have squeezed another DC in if it wasn't for the new rules. I think this will happen a lot. :(

In times gone by people would adopt out children that were unplanned that they couldn't afford and I really feel that this is what we are headed back to. Not adoption but, you get my drift

I also think the government fully know this and its one of the reasons they have brought it in. Simple population control Angry

OP posts:
lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 15:02

Those of you who say you know people who have had children and rely on benefits alone - how do you know this?

I think a lot of people assume that they can read between the lines. But I have friends who are lone parents and who get a lot of money from their parents and family.

Floggingmolly · 23/02/2017 15:06

Different issue, different cause, different time, Lottie. Don't be silly, please

TheWinterOfOurDiscountTents · 23/02/2017 15:07

It works very well in Ireland, Rainbow

That's not at all how it works in Ireland!

ElvishArchdruid · 23/02/2017 15:07

I think in a way my story highlights why they've had to put this cap on, or you get big families on big handouts. As popping out kids is like an 18 year investment in your back pocket, which is wrong. You can't tell me that it isn't the case because I know full well it is.

I wish I could start my own Vlog on life, there's so much I've seen and experienced which is so wrong. In my younger days I wanted to save the world, what happens there is you get taken advantage of.

There's those that say, benefits should be split into sections, so you get an automatic gas/electric top up by voucher, same for water rates, a food/household goods voucher indexed to your household (you appeal if there's dietary stuff that pushes costs up) then a bit left over in cash. Maybe twice a year you submit measurements or sizes and you get a uniform and shoes that won't cause deformities. Similar for casual clothes, but not stock in that case a voucher to go a place where people donate clothes too. No price put on clothes, a jumper is a jumper kind of thing.

I'm not saying I agree, some cases scream out that some help is needed, as budgeting is hard for some. I work with the school on various things, there's children who have shoes that cripple them with pain and let water in. The Mum can't afford to buy new, but it's CHILD tax credit. I feel for them all sorts gets handed to these kids, they get over the moon at trainers that aren't new, but fit and look swish to them. A bag to carry school stuff in, a big fuss is made of these kids, so they have the basics every child should.

Another family I can think of live off benefits and live like royalty. So I think this is a case of knowing how the system works and using that knowledge. The kids get £500 for birthdays and Christmas the front room is, well I'm sure you've seen with the, 'look at what Santa's bought!' photos. They redecorate yearly, the top Sky package, we struggle to justify the cost for the basic with kids stuff & entertainment package. Let alone sports and movies. The best post I saw was the family moaning the provision for uniform vouchers was changing, someone was like dude what you spend on Sky alone can clothe your kids. They got all defensive and said that's our entertainment. We only go out once a week. They'll get vouchers for the food bank too periodically as it stocks up the basics.

You can't tell me either case should be celebrated. Where there is genuine need there's no issue. The sad thing is it's the geuine ones who don't know how it works, they really genuinely struggle. The thought of a food voucher mortified them. They don't claim what they're entitled to as they're embarrassed.

lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 15:07

Wow Elvish what a sickeningly self congratulatory post.

You don't know everyone else's circumstances you know and if you measure all your friends up against yourself and feel superior then no wonder you are no longer in touch Hmm

I knew someone who used to keep asking me when I was going back to work. I have a 15 year old severely disabled child who self injures, is extremely aggressive, is often up all night, who attacks her siblings and wrecks the house. If you don't live with this you can't begin to understand.

Sixisthemagicnumber · 23/02/2017 15:12

I do know a couple of people who are solely reliant on benefits lottie. I know for definite that they are solely reliant on benefits because they are part of my Extended family / ex partners of my family members. But I try not to let their work shyness cloud my judgment about tax credits because they are affected by the benefit cap anyway so won't get any more money if they have more children. I know far more people who get some tax credits because they are in work but not earning enough to survive. I also know quite a lot of people who are reliant on tax credits because they have a disabled child and have had to give up work / significantly reduce their working hours (I know these people through my sons special school). On balance I do think that the majority of people getting tax credits are actually hardworking people - either in low paid unemployment and unpaid carers work hard too!
As we have the benefit cap to deal with those that don't want to work I don't see the need for these changes to tax credits. I could perhaps support a transition towards lowering tax credits in circumstances where people are given the opportunity to work more hours but turn it down as I think the ideal scenario is that every two parent family should be working at least 35 hours per week.

lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 15:12

Too many people think they know the financial circumstances of others just by looking at their Facebook photos. Well no you don't. Unless you see their bank statements.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/02/2017 15:14

lottie

One of my friends relied on benefits alone

She hates it though and is trying to get a good job

She has done part time work in the past but seems to struggle to keep the jobs, sometimes due to childcare issues, sometimes cost of working and i think sometimes due to medical issues

Its such a shame

lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 15:14

X post Six. Sure I agree that there will be some. But they will surely still be struggling I would have thought.

Sixisthemagicnumber · 23/02/2017 15:18

Your 15 year old sounds like
Mine lottie. Severe learning disability, non verbal, double Incontinent, some life threatening medical issues and in the last week alone he has severely battered 2 teaching assistants at school both of which are bigger than him and on the face of it Stronger than him. But hey, I'm a total sponger cos I should be at work full Time to set a good example to my other children Hmm

DanGleballs · 23/02/2017 15:18

Many people aren't shy at letting you know they are on benefits, especially if they are only claiming what they are entitled to. It's also fairly obvious when you are talking about a single mum who doesn't work that they must be claiming. Again, poor example, but Karen Matthews. It wouldn't have taken Sherlock to see that she wasn't living off a trust fund from rich relatives.

DanGleballs · 23/02/2017 15:20

And if there was more in the welfare pot we could afford to support families with children with disabilities better.

DanGleballs · 23/02/2017 15:20

And if there was more in the welfare pot we could afford to support families with children with disabilities better.

ElvishArchdruid · 23/02/2017 15:24

Firstly I'm glad we're no longer in touch.

Secondly that's your situation which must be difficult, it's not a common scenario though, I know there was no reason why work wasn't an option. It was choice.

When I was a teenager I can't honestly recall self harm being a thing, if you had behavioural issues you were merely labelled a little shit. If you continued to cause mayhem they didn't excuse it, you'd end up in trouble.

I don't know how old you are, I lived in a time where you behaved, as you wouldn't just get a bollocking at school, you'd get even worse at home. Parents wouldn't think to question a teachers judgement, which shows how we've moved forward understanding various issues.

Actually you'd get the odd kid that didn't fit in, they may have harmed themselves. They were isolated and no support was provided. I can think of another who had behavioural issues, not in a Jack the lad kind of way, who was repeatedly excluded.

Lonnika123 · 23/02/2017 15:25

No one has to show me there bank statement Lottieandmia BUT I as a taxpayer do not want to fund there baby habit

ElvishArchdruid · 23/02/2017 15:26

Just to add if you're in that situation with disabled kids, this isn't really about you is it. There's an obvious reason why you don't work.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/02/2017 15:32

if, for example, a parent chooses to piss all of their money away on gambling, any benefits received by the government are hardly going to find their way to the child, are they? No. They'll be frittered away like everything else

This is exactly the point that my friend made yesterday - I believe I mentioned upthread that she works in child protection. It's all very well saying "the children will bear the brunt", but though no decent person wants to see them being disadvantaged the fact remains that through some parents' choices this will always be so, and it's hardly wise to encourage them to bring yet more children into dreadful circumstances

Of course there'll always be exceptions and borderline cases, but it really shouldn't be rocket science to change the system so that those who've genuinely fallen on hard times are rightly supported, while still discouraging downright fecklessness

roundaboutthetown · 23/02/2017 15:35

WhenSheWasBad - I love the way you chose to leave out half of what I said in your quote, so as to change its meaning and thus make it possible for you to disagree with me. Grin

ElvishArchdruid · 23/02/2017 15:36

I don't think solely fund children with disabilities, any one who has a high dependency disability that needs 24/7 care, whom seldom receive the right level of support. That's why Child Carers exist which also needs addressing.

The disparity in DP is crazy, you can get someone seriously ill needing help awarded the bare minimum, where another person receiving them for years and has applied for further hours, gets treble because they've been in the system longer. That's how it appears to work from my viewing point.

Doesn't this deviate from the topic though as the population isn't pissed at those who need help. They are pissed at those who can work but don't.

As a disabled person you were better off being a single parent as you had 5 years benefits no questions. Unlike system changes, which mean I think every disabled person is only in the support group 12/24 months before review. Don't quote me on that but I'm sure I've read that somewhere.

lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 15:40

'When I was a teenager I can't honestly recall self harm being a thing, if you had behavioural issues you were merely labelled a little shit. If you continued to cause mayhem they didn't excuse it, you'd end up in trouble. '

Ignorance at its finest. I'll bet you're one of those people who thinks ADHD doesn't exist Hmm

FYI self harm has been 'a thing' for centuries. When it's a disabled child like mine doing it it's a whole different issue and is called self injurious behaviour,

Ericaequites · 23/02/2017 15:41

Elvish is correct. Some people on benefits can't budget in the best interests of their children. In the States, we give out food stamps that can't be used to buy alcohol or tobacco. There is still fraud, but less than otherwise.
The idea of a clothing bank is appealing. Too often, charity stores charge as much or more than supermarket clothes. People could come together clothes for themselves or their children. Having good clothes is important when looking for work, or starting a new job.

lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 15:42

'I don't think solely fund children with disabilities, any one who has a high dependency disability that needs 24/7 care, whom seldom receive the right level of support. That's why Child Carers exist which also needs addressing.'

I don't understand what you're saying......

ElvishArchdruid · 23/02/2017 15:44

I've seen it on FB a few years back, people saying to a guy you'll have to get off your arse now baby 4 is on the way. They replied how they'd been told about a position but fuck that its factory work paying fuck all above the minimum wage, thanks to immigrants.

I've never known factory work to be a well paid job unless it's specialist work, or you've been there a while so have benefitted from pay rises. But you can't expect to be paid the same with no qualifications, as someone who is in a trained profession.

Doesn't that go without saying?

Wouldn't you agree that some look at the salary and think fuck it, it's not worth it.

lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 15:45

I don't think the US sets a good example of how things should be done. There are people on every street corner with their hands out in the US, a country who thinks it's ok that some people die because they can't afford healthcare.

ElvishArchdruid · 23/02/2017 15:49

Lottie I have posted on another thread, you obviously didn't see about a sibling that was labelled a little shit, who in adulthood has been diagnosed with ASD facepalm That was the attitude that he was a little shit.

So where have I said I don't believe in ADHD etc? I'm saying children were in main stream schooling and these things were rarely heard of. So children would be in detention every night or excluded, because they didn't go, 'Little Timmy has this collection of behaviours, rather than label him as a little shit, maybe he has a problem?'

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