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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the abortion rate will increase after April this year?

930 replies

RocketQueenP · 21/02/2017 17:07

When the new rules on tax credits / universal credit come in ie when no one can claim benefit be it top up or otherwise for any more than 2 children

Sadly I am helping a good friend cope who has just had an early abortion, she did not plan the pregnancy and one of the main reasons is she and her DH are low earners/ They already have 2 at school, and won't be able to afford to have this baby. She is devastated and has admitted they could have squeezed another DC in if it wasn't for the new rules. I think this will happen a lot. :(

In times gone by people would adopt out children that were unplanned that they couldn't afford and I really feel that this is what we are headed back to. Not adoption but, you get my drift

I also think the government fully know this and its one of the reasons they have brought it in. Simple population control Angry

OP posts:
Dawndonnaagain · 23/02/2017 12:58

In my case, I would be paying tax for someone who doesn't work (or earns less), to have more children than me?! Yeah right, people need to get off their arses and fund their own kids
I'm so sorry, every time I get off my lazy arse I shit myself. It does take me a while to get off said lazy arse due to my arthritis, but hey, you're funding my children and I probably have more than you. Cheers!

lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 12:58

FloggingMolly - if only rich people have children then there will not be enough people paying taxes in later years. Not to mention that children usually take care of elderly parents / parents with dementia etc.

You think it is ok for anyone to be paid £600 a month?

lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 13:01

MorrisZap - well since this government doesn't believe in mental health issues I think that would be somewhat hard to figure out!

Batteriesallgone · 23/02/2017 13:01

Oh no, is this turning into a SAHP vs WOHP thread? Is that the big curse of mumsnet - the path all threads must tread after X number of posts...?

Underparmummy · 23/02/2017 13:02

Is it an issue if the abortion rate goes up (other than pressure on the already collapsing NHS)?

MorrisZapp · 23/02/2017 13:03

Doctors believe in mental health issues, and prescribe accordingly. I'd be gobsmacked if termination was causing as much mental illness (comparatively) as childbirth and parenthood.

splendide · 23/02/2017 13:07

I'm afraid so Batteries, that or vanity sizing or parking.

PollytheDolly · 23/02/2017 13:12

The idea that people genuinely want to live on benefits is insane. - No it's not. I know lots of people who genuinely want to live on benefits, and they do. They know the system like the back of their hands and know exactly how to get the maximum amounts of money from it. You might want to believe that such people don't exist but I can assure you that they do!

Yes. I know of a few. One had 4 children (all planned) and couldn't afford the first let alone the others. Never worked, claimed benefits for 30 plus years now. Lifestyle choice. Could have worked but wanted to carry on claiming. This kind of thing obviously needs to be curtailed.

Seems a bit confusing though and not clear. Also, if people fall on hard times and have more than 2, surely TCs on a temporary basis for a period of time? Is there another benefit for this?

Sixisthemagicnumber · 23/02/2017 13:13

Sorry, that's my fault batteries because I talked about the cost of childcare tax credits and how it is t always cost effective to support low earners to have 2 parents working. It wasn't supposed to start a wohp vs sahp debate.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 23/02/2017 13:14

Do children benefit from both parents working whenshewas? Are there any reliable studies which prove that theory

There have been studies (I don't have time to go trawling and do links). There are some benefits to having a sahp and some benefits to having two working parents.
In my opinion neither is superior (working vs stay at home).

I personally think there is a benefit to staying in work - even if it is poorly paid and very basic.
It can be very hard for people to get back into work after a long term break even when the work is fairly low skilled.

Floggingmolly · 23/02/2017 13:14

Again, not all jobs pay £600 per month, Lottie. If they did, we'd all be in the same boat Confused. Free will, and all that. And you really don't have to be "rich" to be self supporting.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 23/02/2017 13:16

My fault too six we should probably stop. Blush

Bragadocia · 23/02/2017 13:20

Lottieandmia you chose to quote the opening statement from the source you cited. If you has gone to the conclusion, you would have had to acknowledge they say:

"the public is not well-served by false alarms. At this time, the scientific evidence does not support the notion that abortion of any kind raises the risk of breast cancer or any other type of cancer."

Batteriesallgone · 23/02/2017 13:21

Grin sorry didn't mean to sound sarky I've just found the thread really interesting so far but SAHP vs WOHP tends to just cause me to switch off really. I do see some of the points raised were valid and when talking about the future of the state I get that ideological beliefs about childcare etc will be relevant. Just shows how interelated everything is I guess.

roundaboutthetown · 23/02/2017 13:26

WhenSheWasBad - I don't think it is actually particularly hard to get a low paid job if you have been out of the job market for a while looking after children. It's hard getting a well paid job, but not a poorly paid one, not if your career record pre-children was excellent.

lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 13:29

I agree you don't have to be rich to be self supporting. But children who live in poor families have more chance of doing well in life if they are not made poorer than they already are.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 23/02/2017 13:31

WhenSheWasBad - I don't think it is actually particularly hard to get a low paid job if you have been out of the job market for a while

I disagree entirely. Yes there will be plenty of people who do get back to work pretty easily. But there's lots who really struggle.

DanGleballs · 23/02/2017 13:53

I've met plenty of people who would rather have lots of kids and rely on benefits. Minimum wage is crap and only provides a low standard of life. Unfortunately some people are unable to aspire to much more than basic jobs. You can see the appeal of having a couple of kids and getting your own place to live and regular money coming in. With the system giving more money and bigger houses for more kids the temptation for some is to keep having more. These kids are less likely to be wanted for themselves and supported properly through childhood. You then end up with more young adults with poor prospects and so the cycle continues. Karen Matthews was an extreme example but there are loads of similar families out there. One young girl I knew wanted a career in childcare but her mother's advice was to get pregnant and get a house. Poor love, I moved areas before finding out which way she went. The thing is, I would much prefer working and scrimping and saving with a couple of kids than staying home with four plus kids. Work is so much easier than the amount of work a large family brings,especially on a limited income.

carefreeeee · 23/02/2017 14:01

Benefits should be contributory - if you don't pay in, you don't get out. (as they are in other european countries). There should also be a period of higher benefits for the first 6 or 12 months after you lose your job.

Benefits should encourage people to behave as we want them to. I don't think paying people to have more children is any use. If people are already poor, having more kids is not going to help them or their existing children. Paying for childcare or for community resources that help parents, such as libraries, parenting help, play centres, groups where parents can easily go to get help and support, would be a better use of funds IMO.

Most richer people (by which I mean those in good jobs) already have children much later and have fewer of them, because they want to be able to afford for the children to have extra lessons/nice holidays etc, and because the practicalities of work and money prevent having loads of children at a young age.

RainbowsAndUnicorn · 23/02/2017 14:15

The idea of only being able to claim based on contributions is interesting. It would stop the serial claimers as they won't have enough contributions but I can't see it working.

I'd vote for childcare being paid and the rest cut. A level playing field where people are free to have what children they like, work what they like as long as it's all self funded. Children would benefit from the early years education, people would have no excuses as to not work and we gain more in taxes from the workers inc the childcare suppliers.

People gain promotions, move jobs, get pay rises etc so once the childcare costs finish they are very likely to not be taking anything from the system where as if out of work claiming it's unlikely the person is going to walk back into a job or earn enough to self support after years of doing nothing. Better investment of taxes than simply paying people to do nothing.

DanGleballs · 23/02/2017 14:15

Better careers advice would help. The careers advice now is pitiful. We asked the advisor what careers could lead from science qualifications and was given a leaflet. No real assistance or encouragement. Being able to have a reasonable quality of life from low paid jobs without needing child tax credits would help to. Sadly the current system means kids and benefits does give a better standard of living than a low paid job with no children. If you take morals out of the equation it often is the most lucrative career plan.

Floggingmolly · 23/02/2017 14:26

I can't see it working. It works very well in Ireland, Rainbow...

Sixisthemagicnumber · 23/02/2017 14:30

people would have no excuses as to not work and we gain more in taxes from the workers inc the childcare suppliers.

Except if you have a child with a severe disability you would by fucked because childcare doesn't exist for them and you wouldn't be able to afford to stay home and look after them because all of tax credits would be diverted to paying for childcare for those fortunate enough to not be forced to give up work to look after a disabled child Hmm

ElvishArchdruid · 23/02/2017 14:36

We've always had 1 parent full time and 1 parent part time as it shows the children that you work to earn luxuries, but parental responsibility is important we personally think an adult should be there before/after school. That is just how we rock, not saying it's 'the' way.

The children know that Dad now pays for bills and a few treats. If you want an app or some tokens on the QT that comes out of Mum's bank.

On the benefits side I can give you a direct comparison. Two families split up same year, both families have kids stay with Dad. One family the Dad works full time, the other family claim benefits. Even though Dad has a trade he can easily fit round childcare.

Fast forward 20 years, Dad 1 got made redundant and found another job before he had to leave long term job, both kids working. Dad 2 is still on benefits and none of the kids are working. Even if we fast forward 30/40 years Dad 2 will still be on benefits albeit a different one now, as they've got a bit hardcore with JSA I believe.

I'm proud to come from Dad 1, it always shocked me that Dad 2 just was not arsed in showing his kids that in order to exist, you should get a bloody job. Another comparison I started working as soon as it was legal, because I was bought up with - if you want you earn. The other person reached 35 I believe never having done a job, same with siblings. I lost contact a few years back so not sure what's going on now.

Obviously it was one of them friendships where you share mutual interests, so if you wanted to share the excitement you would pay for the other person. Shockingly it quickly mounts up.

I even said oh do work experience alongside me, it'll give you skills to put on your CV. Not you won't get paid but the plus side is you don't have only factory work as an option. That was a bad idea, the person was laziness personified. I'd hit print, busy office, 15 minutes later the person would drag themselves to the printer, 'It's not there!' Press print again, basically repeat the process till you have to get off your arse and see what the fuck was happening. Not only that sitting next to you with a magazine or journal work paid for, feet on my desk, I'm learning so can't help or pay any interest today.

I think I got my first grey hair whilst trying to do the person a favour. My boss loved it as I was management gold, but when you've got a sort of friendship, management goes out the window. At drinks with colleagues there would be a laugh and joke about it, so I could unwind. Then the other person decided she wanted in on it. We'd go to a really nice wine bar where the managers would pick up a round each. Everytime she would eye up that list, I swear she just looked at the price.

I do have a story I tell but I can't as it'd out me. But I was in hospital, I helped this old lady who struggled a bit, she wanted to introduce me to her daughter. It turned out said person was working with the daughter, but the daughter would go down the back stairs to avoid conversation. It felt so good to know it wasn't just me. The daughter was like it'd be great if you could do an exhibition for local kids, as they had guests come and do that. I just couldn't face it. I do feel guilty as the old lady took a liking to me, so did the daughter, so it could have been a good friendship. They were banking on me going to this place to see bump into them.

But the moral of my super long story is working breeds morals & a work ethic into your kids and makes 9/10 want to achieve. My Dad didn't have it easy, there were no top up benefits then, we had to be pretty creative with food. My siblings and I took on housework, cooking for each other, we weren't the Waltons as we wanted to kill each other, but still we worked as a team for my Dad.

lottieandmia · 23/02/2017 14:59

'It works ok in Ireland' where the economy has gone tits up. Hmm.

Does anyone remember the programme series 'Poor Kids'? It was on tv before all the propaganda shite about people on benefits having 5 holidays a year. These children were all visibly grindingly poor. And I think this situation will worsen with more cuts.