To dare speak about Vaxxed on MN?

[thegoodfight]

NC for this but a regular.

So I've just watched the documentary Vaxxed. I know how vaccine threads unfold on MN, so I'm ready to be told IABU however I feel like everyone should see this whatever your views - it's about the cover up around studies into autism and MMR

There is an admission from a CDC insider that he worked on the study and hid data which proved a link (a strong an quite frankly astounding one) and the data was sent to an external biologist who saw it for himself. There are first hand accounts from parents, scientists, doctors and politicians. The CDC haven't denied anything or called their lawyers despite it being an allegation of the biggest medical fraud ever (not exact words but something along those lines)

I just can't believe it's not been in the news! AIBU to ask if anyone else is planning to watch it??

The trouble with studies is they can be flawed.

This means 1 study can say one thing, but there can also be another 20 that say something else.

This is now why we have Cochrane Reports in this country which look at looks of studies with a critical idea, to assess their value and credibility and to compare findings with other finding.

This is called evidence based medicine.

There is quite a lot of people who would like to see the end of evidence based medicine.

Why?

For political reasons: it doesn't fit with their narrative of government conspiracies and cover ups. Its something that can (and is) being exploited to undermine certain political beliefs. Particularly from the Christian Right, who don't like science in general because it tends to be viewed as incompatible with their beliefs. Also fear of X empowers Y by getting the public to believe in the fear.

For economic reasons: lots of people make money from dubious beliefs about medicine - particularly in the private sector. Not everyone believes in 'Do No Harm'.

Not to mention the historical issue and the fact that autism is simply better recognised and diagnosed when in the past this was not done.

It unfortunately also prays on vulnerable families trying to understand why their child is autist and it put children at risk of dying. Intelligent credible people, who you'd never expect to be duped, because they aren't like that.

The trouble is you won't believe a word of this. Why? You already have a belief based on little more than an urban myth and a dodgy dossier. Beliefs are damn near impossible to shift by being sane and rational and through using evidence. This is really the infectious disease of our time, not MMR related autism.

The fact that Trump is anywhere near this should set off the alarm bells.

The rule of thumb is presently, if Trump believes it, there is over a 90% chance of it being utter bollocks.

Good luck with this thread. I'm sure you'll convert someone. And put someone's life at risk. Nice work.

Is that you Donald?

bumbley selective quoting won't help... from the paragraph before...

the combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (rather than monovalent measles vaccine) has also been implicated. Fudenberg16 noted that for 15 of 20 autistic children, the first symptoms developed within a week of vaccination.

He stated the vaccine was implicated but he had not proven it in this paper. The truth was worse... Wakefield acted without the required ethical approval and a number of children with autism were subjected to unnecessary invasive medical procedures such as colonoscopies and lumbar punctures.. and more

In this case wiki is the easiest place to start en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

Do some people just not understand what autism is?

My ds3 was born autistic, he didn't magically happen one day.

pricks

"It's rather like watching Most Haunted and seeing it as absolute proof of ghosts existing."

Excellent analogy!

it

But what some are suggesting, is that the risk of death is preferable to the risk of autism.

The only people who are making death preferable are the very people who are trying to 'cure' autism. They're just not helping at all by turning it into some dreaded affliction. I admit that those people at the very end of the severe continuum are disabled, but there are many more (myself included) who could be okay if society was more accommodating.

I know a couple who have an autistic child. She's non verbal and quite badly affected, but the father was determined that they should have a family holiday to Disneyland because he wanted to experience a normal family holiday. Ffs, this was a terrible idea and their child just didn't cope at all. Unsurprising eh? Dad was angry and disappointed even though he brought it on himself.

Just stop forcing us to be 'normal' why not enter our world and ask us what we want/need. Even non verbal people can be reached.

It's just so arrogant to assume that we should have to change to fit in with others. If you did this to a gay person there'd be uproar (and quite rightly). They're no longer considered to be 'disordered' so why can't we be?

Jeez went to the shops and have come back to absolute carnage! Some people sound mental!

Just to be very very clear - those saying that autism is better than measles/look at polio etc etc - the documentary very very clearly calls out for widespread availability of a single measles vaccine. In no way does it say there shouldn't be a vaccine.

As for consipiricy theories etc etc - maybe. But the admissions are made by a member of the CDC on phone calls and emails, recordings of which appear in the film. As I said, the CDC have not stepped forward and said they are false or even commented on the film (despite it gaining a lot of traction in the states and it being a bestseller on Amazon UK). Make of that what you will and I'll leave now.

The Wakefield issue is also adddressed in the movie with a full explanation of his paper and why it was discredited.

Pennys it sounds like your daughter had a pretty bad case of measles. My sister and I both had it (old!) and were nowhere near as ill. The vaccine isn't 100% effective so your daughter may have just fallen into the ~5% of people that it doesn't work for. I'm glad she made a full recovery.

Dawn, no it shouldn't. The patients referred to him had nothing to do with his son's birthday party.

Ourblanche, I'm not selectively quoting. People seem to think the paper said that they proved a link between the MMR vaccine and autism which it quite clearly says it did not. I've read plenty, thanks.

Bumbleymummy is a very sinuous, mild mannered but committed anti vaxxer. You would be wise not to engage.

The "study" is just as much bollocks now as it was when the guy made the whole thing up. He wanted to sell single vaccines as they made more money for the company he was involved with. He admitted his lies, was stripped of his title, banned from his profession and generally discredited. MMR Scandal Recent large study

Recent studies HAVE shown that autism is likely already identifiable at BIRTH, before any vaccines are given and certainly before age 1 when the MMR is given. Guardian Article about autism in infants

Autism is a massive spectrum and although lots of autistic people struggle with certain things a huge huge number of us live perfectly normal lives, have jobs, have partners and have kids. All this chaos is actually really fucking offensive. Not vaccinating has a risk of DEATH. So anti vaxxers are often pretty much saying "having autism is worse than death" in a round about way. FUCK THAT.

Anti-Vaxers share a common platform with Flat Earthers, Moon landing conspiracy theorists, and holocaust deniers.

If people invested their energy into campaigning for better support in schools and better support for families, there'd be a better chance of more autistic people living fulfilled lives.
People choose conspiracy theories that go along with the autism = bad. I find that sad.

Thanks Bertrand Backing away!

I hadn't actually realised Vaxxed was directed by Wakefield himself. There are a thousand reasons why this man is - to be polite - never ever to be trusted, but thought people might "enjoy" this account of the "conspira-sea cruise" which he spoke at. www.wired.com/2016/02/conspira-sea-cruise-know-truth/

It's a cruise where people who buy into all kinds of mad conspiracy theories go to get more and more brainwashed - and he's part of it. Fascinating account, and full blog here violentmetaphors.com/2016/05/29/a-skeptic-on-the-conspirasea-cruise/

The Wakefield issue is also adddressed in the movie with a full explanation of his paper and why it was discredited Yes, explained by the man who wrote, was not just discredited but disbarred and continues to make money on it to this day.

You can't believe anything he puts forward as evidence of anything. Not even the CDC info... remember who edited the film and what his motives are!

The most important thing to remember is that:

There is absolutely no need for single vaccine when THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THE VACCINE WE HAVE. What an utter waste to give extra vaccines with extra prep, extra needles, extra jabs for NO GOOD REASON.

Going to single vaccines would be a colossal waste of NHS money that the NHS can't spare.

thegoodfight please don't be naive enough to believe that a movie directed by Wakefield "addresses" anything whatsoever to do with him and his actions.

My 7 year old has autism. He was definitely showing the signs before he had the MMR. I did not know it then, but there were a number of things that I had had concerns about in terms of his development that after he was diagnosed aged 5 and I began to read about it made me realise that they were indicators.

It angers me immensely that Wakefield and his cronies are taken seriously by anybody. He paid kids at a children's party to take their blood, ffs. he was pushing an agenda of his own for his own selfish and self aggrandising reasons. When DS was diagnosed an apparently well meaning friend sent me the info of someone who apparently specialised in homeopathy for 'vaccine damaged children'. Someone else told me that there was a link between autism and a ventouse delivery- which DS was, and sent me some sort of wiki page.

I spent 10 years of my former career working in developing countries in the medical field (as a project officer, not as a medical person). I have seen how appalling it can be when children are not vaccinated. We should be thanking our lucky stars that we have a health care system that provides vaccines for our children.

thegoodfight Read your own thread. The cdc discussions in the film are creatively edited. The stuff about the CDC are lies. As for starting a thread, coming back and finding that you don't like the replies and leaving, there's a name for that.

Agree with Bertrand that Bumbleymummy's posts in this thread are at best disingenuous. "Oh, Wakefield didn't say this" - but no explanation as to how he has come to be so misquoted (or struck off, ffs!) or accurate citations as to what he did say.

One of my dc has what you could call undesirable reactions to vaccinations, every time without fail
We still carry on though as want him protected and we just have to ride out the week to ten days of horrible side effects

Jeez went to the shops and have come back to absolute carnage! Some people sound mental!

And you were expecting what exactly?

Bloody hell, blackcherries that far outstrips anything else I have ever read about his self defence!

Great gran in law had measles when pregnant ....caused severe myopia in gran in law , dad in law, sister in law and my daughter. All have major issues with vision, frequent hospital appointments, surgery, squints, not life or death but bloody miserable at times and it makes me very angry when I hear people saying they don't think measles is that big a deal .