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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To have judged this mum?

342 replies

Flowersinyourhair · 15/02/2017 14:42

I've just witnessed some awful parenting in a cafe and feel slightly rubbish that I looked away and said nothing.

Sitting in a cafe at lunchtime with my two girls (youngest a toddler, oldest 10). On the table next to us are two women, clearly friends, and their collective 3 children (a baby, an 18 month old-ish and a toddler of a similar age to mine). Lots of smiling between the kids, parents chatting etc. All well, until it's time for them to leave.

Woman 1 grabs hold of the toddler with no preamble, no warning, just reaches over and grabs him while still chatting to her friend. Child predictable yells "no", starts crying and kicking off about leaving. Mother forcibly shoves him into his pushchair next to the 18 month old sibling. Child now crying in earnest. Mum gets down in his face and yells at him to "shut up or I'll give you something to cry about". Child now desperate. He reaches out and grabs something from the table, knocking some bottles over. Mother immediately hits him. It then becomes clear that he's grabbed the bottle because he was thirsty. Mother now gives him the drink, telling him for not telling her he needed a drink and being "a naughty boy" instead. At one point she apologise to the friend she was with who said "it's ok". The woman then said to the child "she doesn't think you're ok. She thinks you're a naughty boy who deserved that smack".
My children were really upset by this. When this woman shouted, she really shouted and they were really close to where we were sat.

I kept quiet throughout but to be honest I wish I'd said something. If this woman behaves like that in public, lord knows what those children go through at home. Notably, when she shouted in the toddlers face, the 18 month old sitting right next to him didn't even flinch.

The other mum, with the baby, gave me a "sorry" look as they left. I'm hoping that maybe she's in a position to intervene if needed.

OP posts:
stopfuckingshoutingatme · 16/02/2017 10:29

I really would like to thinks I'd call her out on it. But I can easily see how I would be stunned to silence/The war cry of cowards everywhere

that's harsh, and frankly not at all empowering!

Would it be better if someone provided advise on what would be a good thing to say? MN is usually so good at this.
in simple terms its a tough one as children are involved and most people don't want to kick off in front of the kids

also this woman was with her mate, who wants to start a fight with w (probably rough as fuck) strangers when you are with your own children

there are no easy answers here

but as always food for thought

someone once bollocked me as DS2 ran into a road (I know...I know)
It was fucking AWFUL. I actually don't even want to remember that day again

Trifleorbust · 16/02/2017 10:29

Some serious overreactions here. Bottom line - it's not assault. You may wish the law was different. It isn't. Unless a situation is extreme, you should keep your opinions to yourself, in my view.

bulletjournal · 16/02/2017 10:30

no one is condoning child abuse.

Smacking a child is not abuse. Creating boundaries is not emotional abuse. Allowing a child to go into full melt down tantrum because you spend 20 minutes lecturing him instead of being firm is not abuse (even if it's not great for the child).

Punching, leaving bruises and broken bones, neglecting a child is abuse. Not quite the same.

MommaGee · 16/02/2017 10:31

I really would like to thinks I'd call her out on it. But I can easily see how I would be stunned to silence.
The war cry of cowards everywhere
Or the people who are genuinely shocked to see that happening, have their own child pulling on their arm asking what's going on and are aware that pissong the parent off on public could result in a beating for that kod back home!

Being unable to wipe my own arse (as an adult) doesn't give a career the right to force me. It is still up to me
Fair point, I was thinking more lacking the mental capacoty to consent. However my point stands between ypu doing it to a 20 month old and a 7 year old or a 15 year old assuming no sen. It wouldn't be considered acceptable and they're still legally a child

CaraAspen · 16/02/2017 10:33

Better to overreact than to let bullies carry on hitting small children.

MommaGee · 16/02/2017 10:33

bullet screaming into a child's face is potentially verbal and emotion abuse and we've reported to SS previously at work wothut any of the physical issues

CaraAspen · 16/02/2017 10:35

Abuse of children is not just about smacking.

Rixera · 16/02/2017 10:36

Alright bullet, so as long as there's no sign of anything to report then we're in the clear?
Good to know. I'll be sure to bear that in mind when planning on causing physical pain to my child. Hmm

bulletjournal · 16/02/2017 10:37

screaming into a child's face is potentially verbal and emotion abuse

Hmm

no exageration there, is it? You can't make a judgement based on that! There is a context.

Do you even fully believe the OP story, who seems to have completely forgotten about her own kids, too busy was she listening to every single word of the next table? I quote the OP Woman 1 grabs hold of the toddler with no preamble, no warning. How involved was she in the next table...

Trifleorbust · 16/02/2017 10:39

MommaGee: I'm sorry, I don't get your point to be honest? I am not suggesting doing anything to an adolescent against their will. They are old enough to understand that they can say no, but there consequence is sitting in their own mess. We are talking about toddlers. We don't treat toddlers as though they have the capacity to make choices like an adult or an adolescent. We make the choices for them.

CaraAspen · 16/02/2017 10:40

No wonder the OP was drawn to that appalling woman's behaviour. A child was being treated roughly and nastily by its delightful mother. How can anyone defend this sort of treatment meted out to a toddler?

Trifleorbust · 16/02/2017 10:40

Better to overreact than to let bullies carry on hitting small children

No, it isn't. 'Overreact' means your reaction is excessive in proportion to their action.

Rixera · 16/02/2017 10:41

Bullets definitely onto something here.
Stare constantly at your own children, unaware of anything going on around you, and instead focus on the best way to conceal hitting your own kids by ensuring no marks are left or bones are broken.

Funnyface1 · 16/02/2017 10:42

That sounds awful. But you know if you had intervened you have got a mouthful, she wouldn't have started to treat her children any better and your children would have been even more upset. That's why you kept quiet. Makes you feel crummy though. I think most people would intervene only when a child was in serious danger. At least I hope they would.

CaraAspen · 16/02/2017 10:46

Trifleorbust

*Better to overreact than to let bullies carry on hitting small children

No, it isn't. 'Overreact' means your reaction is excessive in proportion to their action.*

I am aware of what it means. The actions of the woman amounted to abuse of a child in public. Normal people are horrified by this which is totally understandable.

Much depends, of course, on your definition of abuse. How sad that any parent should think they can deliver a stinging smack with juuust the right amount of force - in case it shows or leaves a mark.

bulletjournal · 16/02/2017 10:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Trifleorbust · 16/02/2017 10:48

CaraAspen: No, Cara, 'normal' people differ in their responses to this legal action. I think intervening when you see someone behaving in a way in which they are perfectly at liberty to behave is usually excessive.

Tatteredlace · 16/02/2017 10:48

If someone is brazen enough to hit their children in public I can only wonder what they do behind closed doors.

MommaGee · 16/02/2017 10:48

Trifleorbust. Parenting isn't being in a relationship. If my partner picked me up and removed my clothes and forcibly wiped my arse, I would say it was abusive as well. When it is a child we call it 'parenting'. I don't agree with smacking but it isn't abuse.

If I picked my 14 yo son up and removed his clothes and forcibly wipes his arse I would consider that abusive. Its still parenting but the age not just the relationship, and the force all make a difference

CaraAspen · 16/02/2017 10:50

Trifleorbust

Better to overreact than to let bullies carry on hitting small children

No, it isn't. 'Overreact' means your reaction is excessive in proportion to their action.

I am aware of what it means. The actions of the woman amounted to abuse of a child in public. Normal people are horrified by this which is totally understandable.

Much depends, of course, on your definition of abuse. How sad that any parent should think they can deliver a stinging smack with juuust the right amount of force - in case it shows or leaves a mark.

ghostspirit · 16/02/2017 10:50

There was a recent thread where op said she had screamed/shouted in her baby's face. Everyone said things such as you are probably tired stressed. Baby will be ok it's so hard with baby's ect. I do think the replys were right the mum felt awful about it. Maybe the mum op is talking about felt the same.

CaraAspen · 16/02/2017 10:50

*Tatteredlace

If someone is brazen enough to hit their children in public I can only wonder what they do behind closed doors.*

^^

Gottagetmoving · 16/02/2017 10:52

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at people attacking OP to defend the abusive mother.
It is not difficult to work out that a mother who handles or speaks to her child like that is an abusive mother.
The reasons why she is abusive are not known, but the concern for the child is justified.

BeMorePanda · 16/02/2017 10:52

It's shocking seeing children treated like this. I'm no angel and I have lost my shit with the DC before but not to rubbish and belittle them and hit them in anger or frustration.

I witnessed a step-father berate and verbally abuse a 3 yo (friend of my DD's) for tipping a bottle of bubble mixture on the ground outside. This was in front of the child's mother who did/said nothing. He went on and on and on and on about how stupid and thoughtless this (very intelligent and wonderful) 3 yo was. He is a big guy and he was really aggressive and in her face - he usually seemed like a nice reasonable kind of chap.

Now we all know that half of the bottles of bubble mixture in the world get emptied straight onto the ground one way or another - it's the the way young kids are.

I didn't say or do anything - I was stunned/shocked. I did say something distracting and comforting to the child afterwards. This incident has stayed with me though and now many years alter I can still feel the awfulness of the situation.

I never socialised with them again and still thinking about the incident now gives me chills.

Rixera · 16/02/2017 10:52

I do have massive problems with people who think child abuse is okay, yes.
And I am probably more sarcastic and uncharitable than I am when debating other issues, because I think child abuse is intolerable.
Please don't feel sorry for my daughter, who is currently playing happily with her Lego, having never been smacked or shouted at by me, yet still magically aware of boundaries. Could it be that I've somehow parented effectively without resorting to violence? Noo, that can't be right...