To have judged this mum?

[Flowersinyourhair]

I've just witnessed some awful parenting in a cafe and feel slightly rubbish that I looked away and said nothing.

Sitting in a cafe at lunchtime with my two girls (youngest a toddler, oldest 10). On the table next to us are two women, clearly friends, and their collective 3 children (a baby, an 18 month old-ish and a toddler of a similar age to mine). Lots of smiling between the kids, parents chatting etc. All well, until it's time for them to leave.

Woman 1 grabs hold of the toddler with no preamble, no warning, just reaches over and grabs him while still chatting to her friend. Child predictable yells "no", starts crying and kicking off about leaving. Mother forcibly shoves him into his pushchair next to the 18 month old sibling. Child now crying in earnest. Mum gets down in his face and yells at him to "shut up or I'll give you something to cry about". Child now desperate. He reaches out and grabs something from the table, knocking some bottles over. Mother immediately hits him. It then becomes clear that he's grabbed the bottle because he was thirsty. Mother now gives him the drink, telling him for not telling her he needed a drink and being "a naughty boy" instead. At one point she apologise to the friend she was with who said "it's ok". The woman then said to the child "she doesn't think you're ok. She thinks you're a naughty boy who deserved that smack".
My children were really upset by this. When this woman shouted, she really shouted and they were really close to where we were sat.

I kept quiet throughout but to be honest I wish I'd said something. If this woman behaves like that in public, lord knows what those children go through at home. Notably, when she shouted in the toddlers face, the 18 month old sitting right next to him didn't even flinch.

The other mum, with the baby, gave me a "sorry" look as they left. I'm hoping that maybe she's in a position to intervene if needed.

I have seen a mother shake then hit her toddler and tell it that fireworks are pwitty.

I suspect that child is now grown up and doingnthe same to their children.

Experiences like these, and experiences of God only knows how many children who go through this daily, are such a stark reminder that all violence against children should be made illegal.

There is no spectrum of violence which should be tolerated. No such thing as a 'light smack'. It's still violent.

I agree with ossur too, having a word with mother would be the way to go IMHO.

How can people say that child is not abused because it's reactions didn't quantify it?
Of course it is abused, the whole OP is about them witnessing it being verbally, emotionally and physically abused!

I disagree with violence against children, but the fact remains that what is described here doesn't meet the threshold for abuse or violence. There would be no police involvement, no SS involvement, because a parent smacked or shouted at their child. These things are allowed. I wouldn't smack my child (at least I don't think I would) but I wouldn't discuss my parenting with a stranger in a cafe if I did.

Shakirasma
Yes I would agree that the child was abused in this scenario. However extrapolating this incident to the assumption that there is worse abuse in private is what we were discussing regarding the child's response.

Analysing the child's behaviour isn't blaming the child or diminishing the effects, analysing the child's behaviour is with the purpose of establishing patterns that might be indicative of further abuse. Is that really that difficult to understand?

The child is abused. The extent is unknown so there was speculation.

YANBU I was doing my weekly shop last weekend and witnessed similar. Admittedly an older boy but the tension between the mother father and son was awful, and every time the mother spoke it was to threaten to "f batter you" to an almost teenage boy. He looked really upset but she repeated it to the point I went and did my shop backwards so I wasn't progressing up the aisles with them. I wanted to say , what kind of a reaction do you think you might get speaking to him like that, but she didn't look the type to take that well. Another thing that grates is when Dads call their sons "mate". No you are his father not his mate. I think parenting in the UK is poor generally. Not from everyone but it's definitely something we could improve.

Easy to feel paralysed in these situations. How awful for that poor baby. Shame people aren't so quick with their phones to video this kind of thing, as they are when people are shouting obscenities on the tube.

Trifle It wouldn't legally qualify for abuse (although there might be SS involvement - parenting courses etc. usually if the child was also disruptive at school) but that doesn't mean it wouldn't cause long term emotional harm which in my mind qualifies as abuse.

Do worry about not saying anything, it could have descended in to a worse argument.
I was told when dd was a baby that she'll have to get used to shouting no because we don't shout at home, shea a toddler now and hates shouting and arguing. To the point of crying when hears it

BaconMaker: I'm not disagreeing with you. I would have judged her too. But I wouldn't interfere in her parenting unless I felt the situation would warrant SS or police attention, because if the law and professional bodies in this country say it's 'good enough', I am in no position to start giving advice otherwise.

When she screamed in the child's face, I would've gone over, and asked her if we could have a word. Then I would explain to her, the potential damage she is inflicting on her children, by acting this way

And you think she would have listened to you? She would be more likely to tell you to F* off.

Major, it's a fair point that many a three year old would probably dissociate and shut down as a response to repeated violence, but then going on to conclude that a three year old who still cries when hit is probably not abused at home is coming very close to victim blaming a bloody toddler.

The thing is that this woman wasn't/shouldn't have been at the end of her tether. The children had all sat really well throughout her lunch with her friend. This little boy hasn't been running around/shouting and screaming/jabbering away relentlessly. He had been as good as you could hope a 2/3 year old to be. He only got upset when, without any warning or discussion, he was grabbed and shoved into the pushchair with the verbal onslaught then slap that went with it. He literally did nothing at all to warrant any of it (not that a toddler would ever warrant such treatment in my book).

And in answer to those saying he wasn't 'desperate' he was angry/annoyed etc, actually I think he was scared of this big woman screaming in his face and no doubt all too aware of her likely next step.

Something similar happened in a cafe I was in with my friends son. There was a lady there with her two children, one a baby and the other a toddler. They were eating their dinner and the toddler was eating his. She suddenly decided she wanted to go and he hadn't finished his dinner so she just walked to his seat and yanked him out of it by his arm, he said 'no mummy..want chips' she ignored him and tried to force him into his pushchair, he went rigid so she started screaming at him that he was pathetic and was trying to push his stomach down into the chair, he was screaming (at his point staff started to intervene) then she stood up .. said 'f**k this!' and stormed out with the baby. The little boy started shouting 'mummy don't leave me!!!' and one of the staff was speaking to him, then they went and got him some colouring things, so he sat colouring for a while. I was talking to him whilst the staff were busy and he kept coming up to me then walking back to his seat to do more colouring.

His mum then came back, muttered something about Boots (pharmacy) being 'shit' then grabbed him again to put him in his chair (he was trying to get his picture but didn't manage to).

My friends son who is in his twenties and has moderate learning difficulties... he was actually sat there saying (not quietly, the boys mother was right behind us) 'the police would arrest her if they were here, she's nasty and she should be in jail'..which didn't really helped the situation (I was trying to get him to be quiet,but you can't get him to stop saying anything so it was a waste of time trying).

without any warning or discussion, he was grabbed and shoved into the pushchair with the verbal onslaught then slap that went with it

I don't disagree that the mum was OTT but you sound like you have a BIG agenda in terms of pushing a particular parenting style and I am not sure I trust your account of the situation.

you lost me at my own children were upset by it including your 10 year old .

Why were you not concentrating on your own children, instead of following the other family so closely? Your post sounds horribly judgmental and one sided. I would love to hear the other side of the story.

She sounds like the bottom of the parenting barrel. I can't take cretin like this.
What she says to this hold becomes his own voice to himself.
I really would like to thinks I'd call her out on it. But I can easily see how I would be stunned to silence.
If she's happy to treat him like that in public how does she treat him at home?
That poor baby. Hopefully the correct people are looking out for him.

toomuchtooold
That is really beyond the pale to say that I was victim blaming a toddler. I asked about behaviour, mathanxiety clarified that the toddler would seek to normalise. Someone else said the toddler would dissociate. I'd imagine the behaviour could go either way therefore all we can do is speculate.

I categorically was not victim blaming a toddler. You can fuck right off with that bullshit. Why you'd even need to say that is totally perplexing.

Read what I wrote. I said I don't know anything about what's expected behaviour.

I agree that she was out of order in public and she may well have anger issues at home (her friend is probably aware of this due to the sympathetic look she gave to you).

However you really cannot help these people.

Two ex best friends of mine used to spank their children really hard, on the verge of beating. Both of them thought this was the best way of dealing with children and both also hadn't been parented well though one had been parented better than the other.

This was just before the SuperNanny naughty step/no hitting era so smacks were more common.

All you can hope in this scenario is the friend is keeping an eye on things, the friend may have a word with the mum, call social services etc.

Yes OP you're parent of the year. Fact is you watched this go on, did nothing and then bitched about it on MN.

TO THE SILENT READER WHO FOUND THIS THREAD BY GOOGLING "I lost it and slapped my child".

If you have got through the 2 pages of the judgement, well done. I don't condone your behaviour but you didn't google to clear your conscience, did you?

You are looking for tips to control the temper. Someone to understand how you can paint on the "I'm coping" mask but underneath it you are drowning. Someone to help you escape this person you are becoming.

There is help. It is not to late. Go to your gp. Contact your health visitor. Drop into your local action for children. Check out the law - I don't think you have broken it yet and you can change the cycle. If you want to get past this there are so many resources to help you.

There are:
Parenting classes, mindfulness training, anger management, debt management, Sen support groups, Single mum holiday groups, art therapy, Ted talks, podcasts (I love "respectful parenting" - it's a little bit smug for my liking, but lots of tips to glean if you can get past that!)

Feel welcome to pm if you need any support in finding helpful resources. Well done for taking the first step.

Flowers not trying to excuse anyone but how do you know how the child had been earlier?

He may have been acting up all morning, trying her patience etc... And after a quiet lunch where he was well behaved she may have still been angry over previous events.... Just a guess. Not saying she was right to be annoyed afterwards but this could be what happened.

You just saw a snapshot of her day.

When I was in 6th form (so between 16-18, can't remember exactly what year) I was in McDonald's with some friends when a woman lost her rag with her child (maybe 5/6 yr old) for blowing bubbles in her drink with her straw.

She repeatedly slapped her all over whilst shouting I TOLD YOU NOT TO BLOW FUCKING BUBBLES slapping with each word if you know what I mean. When she started slapping her head I rushed over and attempted to pull the child away. I ended up on the receiving end of a few slaps myself and the little girl was just dragged outside.

I doubt I changed a single thing and possibly made the mother more mad and increased the abuse.

I always stay out of it now, and if things got to the point of criminal assault I would call the police.

Lots of styles of parenting. Plenty of parents advocate smacking as reasonable behaviour management. There is an argument that it is no more abusive than long protracted negotiations with a child that can't understand. I personally dislike smacking as form of control but can see it rarely has long term consequences if used in moderation and is not at the threshold for abuse. Many would argue truly loving parents do discipline their children.
Not your place to judge unless action was uncontrolled abpnd excessively angry when you should step in.

Crumbs I personally think (from my experience where stepdad lost it once or twice and was also prone to bullying etc) from viewing friends where they've lost it (heard them, seen one mum do it literally beat the child in front of me) that a lot of parents lose control quite easily especially when they lose their temper with a child.

So the smack is never a smack but more physical abuse.

I have to say on the whole I advocate Super Nanny and naughty steps etc over full blown smacking.