To have judged this mum?

[Flowersinyourhair]

I've just witnessed some awful parenting in a cafe and feel slightly rubbish that I looked away and said nothing.

Sitting in a cafe at lunchtime with my two girls (youngest a toddler, oldest 10). On the table next to us are two women, clearly friends, and their collective 3 children (a baby, an 18 month old-ish and a toddler of a similar age to mine). Lots of smiling between the kids, parents chatting etc. All well, until it's time for them to leave.

Woman 1 grabs hold of the toddler with no preamble, no warning, just reaches over and grabs him while still chatting to her friend. Child predictable yells "no", starts crying and kicking off about leaving. Mother forcibly shoves him into his pushchair next to the 18 month old sibling. Child now crying in earnest. Mum gets down in his face and yells at him to "shut up or I'll give you something to cry about". Child now desperate. He reaches out and grabs something from the table, knocking some bottles over. Mother immediately hits him. It then becomes clear that he's grabbed the bottle because he was thirsty. Mother now gives him the drink, telling him for not telling her he needed a drink and being "a naughty boy" instead. At one point she apologise to the friend she was with who said "it's ok". The woman then said to the child "she doesn't think you're ok. She thinks you're a naughty boy who deserved that smack".
My children were really upset by this. When this woman shouted, she really shouted and they were really close to where we were sat.

I kept quiet throughout but to be honest I wish I'd said something. If this woman behaves like that in public, lord knows what those children go through at home. Notably, when she shouted in the toddlers face, the 18 month old sitting right next to him didn't even flinch.

The other mum, with the baby, gave me a "sorry" look as they left. I'm hoping that maybe she's in a position to intervene if needed.

trifle so because there are some things that we do for and to children that we can't do to adults, that means we can hit, scream at, push, shove children when we couldn't do that to adults?

A much better test is:

Would it be assault if someone other than the parent did it.

If I walked up to this woman's child, screams, shoved and hit them, would she go to the police?

Then how can it be okay for her to do it?

I'm at the posters who are on the one hand saying oh, she was probably having a tough time and lost it for a moment and screamed at her kid, happens to all of us, while on the other hand condoning smacking based on the 'pretty weak' evidence base. And at no point putting the two things together and acknowledging that no matter how you feel about smacking, smacking in anger while not having control of your temper, rather than as part of a calm, consistent misguided discipline approach is fucking dreadful and shouldn't be defended by anyone.

in reality, you'd need several independent reports of someone screaming in their kid's face for SS to raise an eyebrow, based on the experience of friends. I think though that if you can find out the parent's name and report them, and enough people did that, perhaps the emotionally abusive parents would think twice. The cynical part of me says the parent would get better at hiding it though.

heres a thought: not only is it illegal where I live. It it's considered socially not ok to hit kids. If you hit a kid in public people WILL react. They will display social opprobrium. It will be made clear to you that your behaviour is not the accepted norm. Someone will probably report it to the authorities.

Now, that's what op wishes she had done. If she had, and if every single time this woman treated her toddler like that she was subjected to horrified looks, people telling her it's not ok etc, do you think she might modify her behaviour? it's possible she might. Social shame is a powerful thing. Not always a good thing and some things that were once considered shameful are thankfully now not (think children out of wedlock.) but perhaps there's a case for the pendulum swinging back a bit?

We behave as society allows us to. If everyone sits back and shows no social reaction to a toddler being hit, then the hitting will continue.

We don't treat toddlers as though they have the capacity to make choices like an adult or an adolescent. We make the choices for them and yet if I say to DS 20 months "leg?" when I'm changing his trousers rather than randomly grabbing from beneath him its a damn sight easier. No one is saying she should have asked her DC of they wished to get in the buggy but there's a difference between that and what OP describes. And o dont think there's any excuse for screaming in a toddlers face and hitting them when 2 minutes ago you were perfectly calm and happy

faken I don't disagree but taken PURELY on the OP's post it isnt clear that this mom was struggling. They're had up until departure a nice coffee date. She might be struggling, we dont know, but I think struggling parents need more help than chilcare if they're not coping with disciplining etc.

screaming into a child's face is potentially verbal and emotion abuse
hmm
no exageration there, is it?
We all I said POTENTIALLY no there isn't. I'm not saying of always is but you surely can't believe it never is??

In fact that is what I hope to do if I see people treating their kids badly. I will ask if they are cool with me joining in.

'Can I hit your kid too?'

If they respond negatively, I will sigh disappointedly say 'ah well, it probably hurts more when it comes from the person they love most in the world anyway...'

MommaGee: I think we are saying the same thing.

if I say to DS 20 months "leg?" when I'm changing his trousers rather than randomly grabbing from beneath him its a damn sight easier.

So? That has nothing to do with this.

Hear, hear Anatidae

Let's all hope for social progression so that children are not allowed to be hit by anyone.

It was in reference to we dont ask toddlers we command them to obey. Maybe if shed picked kid IP and said into buggy npw Bert, put your leg down, move your arm she wouldn't have needed to get physically and verbally aggressive

Better to overreact than to let bullies carry on hitting small children.

Isn't the bully hitting small children an overreaction?

If you fight fire with fire the fire doesn't go out. Offer it a drink of water and a the comfort of a blanket and you will quell it.

Toddlers have choices appropriate to their age. And are reacted to according to their age. If I need Ds in his high hair I'll say right, let's pop you in your high chair. I don't just grab him and bung him in. If he protests or acts up, I gently but firmly tell him he's going in and I gently but firmly wrestle him in there. I dont hit him and I don't let him have his way. Those are extremes.
It's perfectly possible to parent in a way that isn't being wet and isn't abusive. It's not easy - toddlers are infuriating littlebuggers sometimes. But they are still people. To be treated with civility. You can be firm and even rather hard ass without ever raising your voice or god forbid hitting them.

"You are going in that buggy my love even if I have to gently bend you in half and wrestle you in. Resistance is futile."

Morphene: No logic there. At all. Of course it doesn't mean that. It means that there are some things we can do to children that we can't to adults. Other things we can't do to anyone. Other things we can do to adults but not to children (with consent). See?

Please don't feel sorry for my daughter, who is currently playing happily with her Lego

whilst you are ranting on the internet instead of playing with her? Actually, I do feel a bit sorry for her. Your opinions clearly don't make you the perfect parent you think you are.

agree, but the piece that is ALWAYS missing at the moment is concrete help such as getting a break by having the kids in nursery. My sister has had countless professionals advise her how to parent, and no breaks, 0, no practical help or breathing space whatsoever. As I said, the obvious thing to do to help these kids is try and find the parents' name, and report to SS. You won't get much interest, but if they get 5 reports about the same parent they may perhaps make a phonecall.

Anatidae: You are describing the way YOU choose to parent. That is your choice. It's not compulsory. If I don't want to discuss where I am putting my two year old with her, I won't.

MommaGee: Maybe. But we're not her teachers. If she wants to parent that way, she can.

whilst you are ranting on the internet instead of playing with her? Actually, I do feel a bit sorry for her. Your opinions clearly don't make you the perfect parent you think you are.

Stop it with the personal attacks bullet you are coming across very badly here. Goady and intentionally mean and unkind.

bullet when she wants me to join in she says 'mummy play', when she wants me to stop she says bye bye and I either hang out on the sofa behind her or tidy up a bit.
Being a good parent doesn't mean being at her side 100% of the time, nor being perfect. But to me it definitely means not screaming at her or hitting her.

Morphene, I think the test is 'is there any other person that is allowed to do it'. I've had to physically restrain or move ds on occasion. Other caregivers are ok to do the same and sometimes do but a random person wouldn't be.

Sorry OP, but I don't trust your account of this situation. You've chucked in far too much emotive language for me to believe that you don't have an issue with other people's style of parenting.

"Practically thrown" simply means that you don't think she was delicate enough, not that her child was actually thrown about as though he were a rag doll.

And all this 'without warning' type stuff? Child now desperate? My toddler was desperate not to put her shoes on this morning. Kids of that age get very emotive very quickly with the slightest provocation.

I don't agree with screaming at kids, nor do I agree with smacking. But toddlers are hard work. Not everyone copes as well with them as others do.

And like others said, however twee this sounds, you really did just see a snapshot. We're the children clean? Do you think she bathes them while screaming and smacking? Were they average sized? Do you think she's at it while she's feeding them?

Some days it takes us far less to snap than it usually does. She may well be stressed and the toddler may be in the stage where they object to absolutely everything. Witnessing someone going a little batshit is no reason to bathe in the virtue of not being the one whose outburst was seen by others.

I dont discuss it. He's a toddler, there's no negotiating involved. I just tell him what's happening. "Right, buggy!" Rather than just grabbing him.

The example withthe trousers above is a good one. We do that too - just 'leg! Other leg! Thank you.' And if he runs off I go get him and put them on. I don't negotiate.

Not hitting children isn't a parenting style stuff like eating all organic (we don't) or slings (ahem don't either) is a style. Not hitting people is just .., well just basic manners.

Would you slap the waitress? If not, why not?

Also fakenews check out a charity called homestart. They actually do similar, they come for a couple of hours a week and help you manage your home and children, they're really good. Even stuff like helping get furniture, take children out, apply for benefits.

MajorGeneralBuldeeff

chill out, the thread is full of smug judgmental people who cannot tolerate that others have different opinions about parenting. It's also full of people who cannot even understand that the Original Post can be questioned.

If you don't like people having another opinion than you, maybe stay away from the forum? If someone accuses me of being a bad parent, or an abuser, I am perfectly entitled to reply.