To have judged this mum?

[Flowersinyourhair]

I've just witnessed some awful parenting in a cafe and feel slightly rubbish that I looked away and said nothing.

Sitting in a cafe at lunchtime with my two girls (youngest a toddler, oldest 10). On the table next to us are two women, clearly friends, and their collective 3 children (a baby, an 18 month old-ish and a toddler of a similar age to mine). Lots of smiling between the kids, parents chatting etc. All well, until it's time for them to leave.

Woman 1 grabs hold of the toddler with no preamble, no warning, just reaches over and grabs him while still chatting to her friend. Child predictable yells "no", starts crying and kicking off about leaving. Mother forcibly shoves him into his pushchair next to the 18 month old sibling. Child now crying in earnest. Mum gets down in his face and yells at him to "shut up or I'll give you something to cry about". Child now desperate. He reaches out and grabs something from the table, knocking some bottles over. Mother immediately hits him. It then becomes clear that he's grabbed the bottle because he was thirsty. Mother now gives him the drink, telling him for not telling her he needed a drink and being "a naughty boy" instead. At one point she apologise to the friend she was with who said "it's ok". The woman then said to the child "she doesn't think you're ok. She thinks you're a naughty boy who deserved that smack".
My children were really upset by this. When this woman shouted, she really shouted and they were really close to where we were sat.

I kept quiet throughout but to be honest I wish I'd said something. If this woman behaves like that in public, lord knows what those children go through at home. Notably, when she shouted in the toddlers face, the 18 month old sitting right next to him didn't even flinch.

The other mum, with the baby, gave me a "sorry" look as they left. I'm hoping that maybe she's in a position to intervene if needed.

You do not hit a young child or bellow at her or him. What a vile way to behave.

BAD DAY? Unbelievable.

Pfft

KitKats28: Parenting isn't being in a relationship. If my partner picked me up and removed my clothes and forcibly wiped my arse, I would say it was abusive as well. When it is a child we call it 'parenting'. I don't agree with smacking but it isn't abuse.

I'd like to ask one question to all the posters saying "if that's what it's like in public what is it like at home?"
The point is we tend to moderate our behaviour in public sp you're more likely to swear for example on private than in the middle of the street where you might get judged. Similarly people moderate violent behavior because they know people get "judged" so they do the less extreme end of their parenting. I dont hit my children so I dont hit them less in public but I .maybe chunter more quietly

If my partner picked me up and removed my clothes and forcibly wiped my arse, I would say it was abusive as well
Unless they were your career and you were incapable of doing it yourself. Its not being the parent its the caring role. If you had an able 13 yr old doing the above would also be wrong - you're still the parent but your caring rolevis different

It probably won't change her behaviour but I can handle her trying to smack me (ha ha) and the absolute most important thing IMO is that it tells her children that it is not acceptable for their mother to treat them like that.

But it IS acceptable. She is allowed to do it. You may not like it (nor do I) but it is totally legal.

And you would be risking getting into a physical fight in front of your own children to challenge something that it is not your place to challenge

Sounds like one of my ex friends who has adopted to boys of similar age, not a town beginning with S is it?? Social services however disbelieve me and even her own mother, she is even a poster girl for adoption information evenings.

*two

I really would like to thinks I'd call her out on it. But I can easily see how I would be stunned to silence.

The war cry of cowards everywhere

MommaGee: Being unable to wipe my own arse (as an adult) doesn't give a career the right to force me. It is still up to me. It is not up to a child. Children and adults have different rights, even when their needs are the same.

Ok, so for the posters who believe it is child abuse, and the mother is an abusive parent, and a much much worst behaviour happens at home when no one can see this family.

If you genuinely believe that, what do you think confronting this woman and enraging her even further will achieve? Are you trying to push her buttons, patronise and insult her in public, then let her leave with her kids in the worst possible temper? How on earth is that of any benefit to an abused child?

I still think that confusing parenting and smacking a child with child abuse is more harmful than anything.

*carer

YANBU. The mother of that child sounds bloody horrible.
Of course people will judge behaviour like hers. You always get posts harping on about being 'judgey' or 'you sound judgemental'
Too bloody right we should be judgemental of adults shouting in a toddler's face and hitting him.
If more people said something when an adult behaved like that then they may just think about what they are doing.
We shouldn't ignore a child being abused just because the mother may have problems.

we tend to moderate our behaviour in public

not true for so many young mothers who feel flustered, judged, embarrassed and under pressure in public whilst they are completely relax and confident at home, and much much less stressed when dealing with various tantrums.

you know what I'd vote for? SS to have the money to give free nursery hours to struggling parents. Perhaps the mum was just crap, but my extended family that have struggled and have had CAMHS involvement, SS involvement have received an awful lot of advice, and no actual concrete breaks. My view is that these things happen when parents feel overwhelmed and subsidized childcare would help a lot more than all the better parents wringing their hands or trying to intervene. My mum slapped us when we whinged, always did. I don't feel bothered by it, it was normal in the 80s, although I wouldn't have liked that scene either but really, there should be more concrete help for parents.

smacking per se does no long term harm as long as the child feels loved yeah abuse them all ypu like, but give them a cuddle later or buy them some sweets and it'll all be ok. How loved do you think that child felt whilst his mom was throwing hom into a pushchair, screaming in his face and hitting him? Not all abuse is physical, the verbal and emotional abuse is equally damaging

Smacking is not illegal in the UK well it depends on how hard you do it. If it leaves a mark, excessive force etc then it is. The lack of a law isnt carte Blanche for people to physically abuse their children

The problem is it's sp difficult to know what to say in a way that doesn't put you and your own child at risk, and place the child at further hard because "now you've embarrassed me in public!"

i also don't agree there is always worse behaviour at home - many people feel that they are being criticized when their kids play up in public so are more harsh out of doors, very much depends what triggers the parent's anger response.

Ginorchoc

Sounds like one of my ex friends who has adopted to boys of similar age, not a town beginning with S is it?? Social services however disbelieve me and even her own mother, she is even a poster girl for adoption information evenings.

Please take this further and higher up the food chain. People who abuse children need to be stopped.

I would always risk getting in a physical fight in a public place to defend a child unable to defend itself, yes.

The legality is very fuzzy, especially now emotional abuse is finally being taken into consideration.
The ethical and moral stance is much clearer in my eyes. It's not okay to bully, shout at, throw or hit your child. I don't care what kind of day you're having, you take a deep breath and suck it up because that is your job as a parent. If you feel unsafe around them ask for help. She had a friend there, how hard would it have been to say 'can you help strap him in his buggy please?'
But she didn't.

It's unbelievable now the amount of people (teachers, friends) who have now said 'well we thought maybe something was going on but you didn't say anything so we stayed out of it'. Anything for a quiet life I suppose...

Illegal where I live, and behaviour like that gets the police called.
Would you slap the waitress? No. So why slap a toddler?

It's not ok to scream in people's faces and slap them. Regardless of their ages. I totally understand that toddlers can push you to the brink sometimes (I have one) but ffs you go and scream in another room, or grit your teeth and swear quietly to yourself, or weep gently into your tea. I've had situations where I'm trying to wrestle a tantrumming toddler into snow gear at -20 and he's ripping his gloves off and he HAS to put them on because it is minus fucking twenty and I've been close to tears, but never, ever, ever would I scream at him or slap him.
This isn't one of those 'oh shit I buckled him in with his arm through the leg hole' lapses that we all do. It's assault, and it's shitty parenting.

Some of you are condoning child assault. Dear god...

I hate seeing parents create situations, that they then tell the child off for.

*we tend to moderate our behaviour in public

not true*

Tend being the operative word. Abusive spouses tend to moderate their abuse when in public, why would abusive parents be different? However there will be situations that are exacerbated in public or simply dont occur at home that leads to the occasional losing of temper

Also feeling loved doesn't make it okay.
I know my dad loves me. He adores me. He practically worshipped the ground I walked on. He also hurt me a lot to the point where I can't see him any more.

not condoning, but if you really want to relieve abuse of children, you've got to find ways to help that parent do better parenting when it's not at a remove the child level (and SS are never going to remove the kid in this op). Howmany people would self-refer if SS had some free nursery hours to offer to parents that had no other support? Personally i think this is a societal failure, offering a free parenting course to a struggling person is a totally inadequate response to people struggling to cope with the kids.