To have judged this mum?

[Flowersinyourhair]

I've just witnessed some awful parenting in a cafe and feel slightly rubbish that I looked away and said nothing.

Sitting in a cafe at lunchtime with my two girls (youngest a toddler, oldest 10). On the table next to us are two women, clearly friends, and their collective 3 children (a baby, an 18 month old-ish and a toddler of a similar age to mine). Lots of smiling between the kids, parents chatting etc. All well, until it's time for them to leave.

Woman 1 grabs hold of the toddler with no preamble, no warning, just reaches over and grabs him while still chatting to her friend. Child predictable yells "no", starts crying and kicking off about leaving. Mother forcibly shoves him into his pushchair next to the 18 month old sibling. Child now crying in earnest. Mum gets down in his face and yells at him to "shut up or I'll give you something to cry about". Child now desperate. He reaches out and grabs something from the table, knocking some bottles over. Mother immediately hits him. It then becomes clear that he's grabbed the bottle because he was thirsty. Mother now gives him the drink, telling him for not telling her he needed a drink and being "a naughty boy" instead. At one point she apologise to the friend she was with who said "it's ok". The woman then said to the child "she doesn't think you're ok. She thinks you're a naughty boy who deserved that smack".
My children were really upset by this. When this woman shouted, she really shouted and they were really close to where we were sat.

I kept quiet throughout but to be honest I wish I'd said something. If this woman behaves like that in public, lord knows what those children go through at home. Notably, when she shouted in the toddlers face, the 18 month old sitting right next to him didn't even flinch.

The other mum, with the baby, gave me a "sorry" look as they left. I'm hoping that maybe she's in a position to intervene if needed.

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all!! Our biology dictates our need to protect children and young people as a collective, judging is not always a bad thing as it keeps negative behaviour in check. Smacking is never right in my opinion, even when you're at your wits end, every child is different and some are mentally fragile enough that just a few smacks throughout childhood can have an impact. I would love to say I would of said something but these days we're all too scared we will be the ones judged for judging the other parent that I would be put off!

And smoking vs smacking is not a relevant argument at all idek where the hell that came from?! smacking causes both physical and psychological damage, smoking causes no psychological damage and doesn't have to cause physical so long as guidelines are stuck to ie. no co-sleeping, washing hands straight after,changing clothes, cutting down and smoking outside away from baby. ((and no I'm not a smoker, never have been, but I have been smacked plenty and I'm telling you now, I wish those moments could be replaced with parent having a fag instead!))

Boosch you think that a bad day is an excuse to yell and hit out. If my hubby does that cos hes tired and stressed it's dv and I'd be told to ltb. No one would be saying maybe the baby kept him up, maybe the sink leaked, maybe his boss upset him. It wouldnt be ok and it's not ok to do it to a child, a baby really in this case.

Polly there's laws governingvwhat is an isnt legal. Open hand, no lasting mark, soft body part etc. There is some legal protection it just isnt that clearly defined and enforced

Boosh, with as much respect as I can muster, you're talking shit.

OP has already clearly stated that this mother was not at the end of her tether at the time of the incident, she was having a jolly time with her kids and then all of a sudden turned into a cretin shouting in her child's face for absolutely fuck all!?

Why are you excusing this behaviour with ohhh maybe she was having a bad day? Poor lamb! We all have bad days and I've never smacked my child and I do not condone any smacking of children at any time. It's not okay to smack my partner if he does something to displease me, therefore why is it okay to smack someone who is infinitely more vulnerable? Simply because I gave birth to them? It doesn't make sense!

Even the most open minded person wouldn't be able to sit there and say that's okay, it's a normal human response to find this abhorrent, surely? And if anyone does think this behaviour is okay, take a good look at yourself for condoning the physical and verbal assault on the most vulnerable in society.

Even if having the worse day, it's no excuse. I've had many awful ones but never felt the need to be physical with defenceless children or other adults?

So if an adult hits another, pushes them etc but has had a bad day it's fine?

Making excuses just lets it happen.

Boosh, you've just given a series of crap excuses. Your sink leaking, having a period etc etc are no excuse to behave that way.

It's far more serious than that, and your minimising doesn't help.

I went to a cafe with my dh the other day. We were having a nice time and Dh finished his coffee before me.

He stood up, no warning and grabbed my arm to pull me out of my chair. Told me we were going.

I took my arm back and said that I hadn't finished my coffee yet. He said he didn't care, smacked me on my shoulder and grabbed my arm again, this time more forcefully pulling me out of my chair.

It upset me alot, I followed him out of the cafe with tears in my eyes.

Was he unreasonable or was ge just having a bad day?

Why you'd even need to say that is totally perplexing.

Let me clear that up for you then Major.

I read your post, and this is what I read.

I'd assume that if a child is used to being hit/abused then when the parent signals that the hitting is about to start, wouldn't the child shut down out of self-preservation?

I was physically and emotionally abused as a child but I usually displayed the fawn response - i.e. I learned my mother's triggers and tried to be very good and nice and cheerful, and when she hit me I showed "appropriate" remorse by crying. This kept me alive. From what I've read about childhood trauma this is a fairly common way for children to react. It terrifies and triggers me to hear a three year old's behaviour being discussed and the conclusion being considered that he's probably not abused because he cried when her was hit. You're making a judgement - a guess, say - about the level of abuse based on his reaction to it. If it was really abuse, he'd have reacted in a different way. I'm flashing right back to being a kid and knowing that nobody would ever believe me that I was abused, because I was well behaved and quiet and well dressed, I was easy to teach and eager to please. There is a variety of behaviour that children can exhibit as a response to abuse. It doesn't mean they weren't abused.

You're not imagining it toomuch, it's a really common response. We have to do what we need to do to survive and look, it's worked, you're still here.
It drives me nuts when people try to blame a child, or say they're not really abused because (insert arbitrary reason).

I smoke and I have two children. I hope nobody is comparing me to a fucking child beater

(Fwiw I don't do it round the children...)

Sorry too much

I think something that I will ever forget is that clip of Daniel Pelkas mum storming out of the playground with little Daniel trailing after her .

That case haunts me to this day and I am so
Much more vigilant and aware now

And - in a school or social environment you can report people

It's very tricky to address in this scenario

DianaMemorialJam:

I don't care if you smoke, but I am comparing people who smoke around their kids or who allow their kids to be exposed to their second hand smoke on clothes or on hair to people who smack their children in a legal fashion (not hard enough to mark them). Please understand, I think you are entitled to smoke. BUT both are legal activities, both are arguably not good for children and both are frequently subject to moral judgements from total strangers. So yes, I am comparing them.

No I totally agree smoking is not great, obviously. But having a few crafty fags while the children are in bed is hardly comparable to daily smacking and shouting.

Also I'm finding it difficult to find a reliable source of information, what is the actual law regarding smacking?

Found it

Makes interesting reading.

To me it sounds as though the mother is havin a crap day. We all have them. Stressed out. Its half term. Baby kicks off. No sleep previous night because other bby teething. On her period.

I'm not having a great week. Dh working abroad, family member being investigated for a potentially very serious illness, work are doing their best to manage me out after returning from mat leave, Ds is unwell and I'm long term sleep deprived as well as having just snatched minutes sleep the last three nights. No family help (expat.)

I'm shattered, I'm coming down with the bug Ds has, I've been sick twice this morning, I'm worried a family member may have cancer, I'm worried I'm going to be fired. By all objective measures it's not a good week.

I have twice had a good cry to myself. The house is messy. I'm just about managing but no mum of the year awards will be handed out...

At no point, even when under stress and having a shit week, will I be shouting at Ds or smacking him (let's just call it hitting, eh?) I might dissolve into gibberiing tears later on over a cup of tea and some chocolate because I'm not perfect and I'm stressed as fuck.

But these people who hit their kids 'because they're stressed.' Do you hit your boss when they stress you? No you don't. Because the power differential isn't in your favour. But you hit toddlers. It's not ok. It really isn't.

DianaMemorialJam: I agree that daily smacking and shouting would make for a terrible atmosphere for a child. Some people would prefer this to being exposed to cigarette smoke.

I was exposed to daily (nay constant) smoke myself as a child and am as healthy as any other adult I know (no respiratory issues etc). I was also smacked and shouted at regularly and have no lasting anxiety or negative relationship with that parent. I think the issues are overstated in both cases by some very judgey people. I am just interested in why so many of them would intervene with one but not the other, when they see one incident in isolation.

DianaMemorialJam: Are you surprised it is legal?

Meneedsleep....spot on.

To all those turning a blind eye and making excuses....😳

Really sorry Trifle that's awful. The thing is that many people would say they would intervene in this situation, but they can't say that for sure unless they have been there. (I'm not advocating what the parent did btw, I think it's disgusting)

for you Ana

I think a change in the law would make it easier for people to intervene, then there can be no 'but I'm not breaking the law' comebacks.

DianaMemorialJam: I don't think it is 'disgusting' per se. It was normal where I come from. But thanks

Trifle I was (kind of) aware it was legal. I had heard 'rumours' of the 'just don't leave a mark' thing but I wasn't sure of the actual law tbh. It wouldn't even occur to me to research it before. Surely violence is violence?

Cant believe how many people on here think its ok to hit a child....and that ots ok to do it if you're having a bad day! Geesh.

When that child grows up, and you are elderly and frail and poop your own pants and need their care as they once needed yours, perhaps they will have a bad day and hit you and scream in your face....I really hope this happens to those of you who vent on your children!

Hmmmm why intervene in one and not the other? It's a good question. Fwiw here's my thoughts.

I think the atmosphere kids grow up in is really important- I e experienced both types and early verbal abuse etc has, I'm sure, contributed to my anxiety. So shouting/hitting creates an atmosphere of reduced security where the child needs to moderate their behaviour under threat of violence. Sneaking out for a fag or two isn't ideal (third hand smoke is a thing) but it's not creating the domestic atmosphere of fear. Mummy smells of fags is not the same as mummy is often angry so I always play quietly. Mum smoking a quiet one out the back isn't psychologically affecting the child.

i just think these debates about what you would have done are besides the point. If you want to help the kids if you saw something you think was wrong, try and establish a name, phone SS and report. This really is the most effective thing to do. Direct action might help, it might make things worse and it certainly won't help build a case against the parent involved...these rants about what is acceptable parenting or not - you know if you've seen something you didn't feel right about.