To have judged this mum?

[Flowersinyourhair]

I've just witnessed some awful parenting in a cafe and feel slightly rubbish that I looked away and said nothing.

Sitting in a cafe at lunchtime with my two girls (youngest a toddler, oldest 10). On the table next to us are two women, clearly friends, and their collective 3 children (a baby, an 18 month old-ish and a toddler of a similar age to mine). Lots of smiling between the kids, parents chatting etc. All well, until it's time for them to leave.

Woman 1 grabs hold of the toddler with no preamble, no warning, just reaches over and grabs him while still chatting to her friend. Child predictable yells "no", starts crying and kicking off about leaving. Mother forcibly shoves him into his pushchair next to the 18 month old sibling. Child now crying in earnest. Mum gets down in his face and yells at him to "shut up or I'll give you something to cry about". Child now desperate. He reaches out and grabs something from the table, knocking some bottles over. Mother immediately hits him. It then becomes clear that he's grabbed the bottle because he was thirsty. Mother now gives him the drink, telling him for not telling her he needed a drink and being "a naughty boy" instead. At one point she apologise to the friend she was with who said "it's ok". The woman then said to the child "she doesn't think you're ok. She thinks you're a naughty boy who deserved that smack".
My children were really upset by this. When this woman shouted, she really shouted and they were really close to where we were sat.

I kept quiet throughout but to be honest I wish I'd said something. If this woman behaves like that in public, lord knows what those children go through at home. Notably, when she shouted in the toddlers face, the 18 month old sitting right next to him didn't even flinch.

The other mum, with the baby, gave me a "sorry" look as they left. I'm hoping that maybe she's in a position to intervene if needed.

KitKats28: I am not asking that. I know the damage can be limited. But so can smacking be limited - a light smack on the hand every few months will arguably do less damage than daily exposure to the chemicals left on clothing, in hair and of course around the child if the parent is smoking in their company and in the house.

So why are you struggling to understand why I would ask about this?

I'm shocked at some of these responses

Snap shot or not this mother said reaction is not ok!

My dh once confronted a woman. She had smacked a little girl around the face. The child was about 4 and it made an almighty crack and left a red mark. No way was dh going to walk away so he shouted at her

He got told to fuck off and mind his own business but because he voiced an opinion, a few others spoke up too and the footage was eventually passed to the police after a customer complained

It takes a village to raise a child. No one should be turning a blind eye to stuff like this

That is how Daniel Pelka died. Baby P. Victoria Climbie. Because people minded their own business

Well said, Soubriquet, and well done your DH.

Jesus. So its ok to smoke if you wear a jacket... and 10 is nearly grown up...Its also ok to smoke if the mother 'needs to because they are having a bad day'....okey dokey....I guess the child's needs (especially in utero) are secondary at best then. I guess all he SIDS research can take a back seat because the mother smokes around her kid in a jacket before putting them to bed for the night in their smokey room. Geesh.....

Trifle, no not really necessary that often tbf - i say whatever i feel appropriate for the situation.

Areasonablegal: So what did you say at the hospital?

I would have judged to OP, not bothered if that makes me narrow minded or whatever else is being peddled by PP's.

A child breathing in second hand smoke vs a child being hit and yelled at and belittled and frightened? You really, honestly feel these are the same? Which would you pick- if you absolutely had to- for your own childhood? And no I don't smoke, and I'm not downplaying the effects of smoking- but they are not the same thing.

Annie592: I didn't express any opinion about which is worse. There are similarities between the two situations and I have pointed these out, that's all.

And I tolerated both on my childhood, FWIW.

*in

With regards to smoking it depends how the person looks before someone judges them enough to say something.
Here is an example at school a popular mum was pregnant and smoked outside the school gates. She has a rich husband and everyone fawned all over her even though she was 9 months pregnant smoking outside the school gates and over her toddler in a buggy. Comments on her Facebook about what a great mum she is etc
Fast forward 6 months a single mum is referred to a dirty chav on the school Facebook page for smoking in her car outside school and loads of people saying they will report her to ss.
No one dared to tell the popular rich mum she was harming her baby but plenty of people will tell the single mum or perceived 'chav ' types

So if someone is doing something wrong in public I'd guess they will more likely to say something to a 'lower class' and try and put them in their place but would not say nothing to the rich mum

Fair point Trifle, you didn't say one was worse. I feel that my 'threshold' for actually saying something to someone whose opinion differs from mine is pretty high,but hitting a child reaches that threshold for me, smoking doesn't. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite. Sorry to hear you experienced that yourself.

Annie592W: Thanks and that's okay.

The danger can be lessened....that's alright then I'm sure lots of people damaging their children's health in this way tell themselves this and sleep quite happily at night. I witness people smoking outside when their children are present on a daily basis - nobody is washing their hands afterwards. I have heard many smokers trying to explain away the impact their habit has on their children...after all who wants to admit to that. Believe me people stay silent on it but make no mistake their are plenty like me that still judge left right and centre.

Yes I am incredibly judgemental about this. what I don't do is confront these parents about what I deem to be extremely poor parenting choices. The fact is that it is not illegal, and whilst to me and others this is absolutely abusive behaviour, legally it is not. With a more rational hat on I know that it would not be a good idea to criminalise huge swathes of the population who I have no doubt are otherwise loving parents.

In my opinion intervening in the situation the OP described or in the many times I see a parent smoking in front of their child would be wrong. Not because I am a coward, but because whether I like it or not the law has not been broken and as such humiliating a parent in front of their child is wrong. Perhaps it would make me feel good to have spoken up but I suspect that's where the benefit would end. In any case I doubt all these parents will passively take superior parenting advice and that level of confrontation will probably be distressing for all those involved.
If on the other hand I witnessed the legal definition of abuse, I would report it to the police....not MN.

I stand by original post. It is human nature to judge, but in this case I found it distasteful to post on MN when there is no obvious benefit to the child the OP was so concerned about.

The difference for me is that I know plenty of people whose parents smoked, or still smoke, and it didn't cause emotional or self esteem issues. Whereas violence and shouting does.

The scientific evidence is that second hand smoke damages health or are you disputing that or is that okay. This is my main problem with it.

I know lots of people who are parents now who themselves were smacked in a way that wouldn't break the law or warrant social services attention. None of these people are damaged. Incidentally none smack their own children because a) they don't think it works and b) it's simply not socially acceptable anymore to do it.....and I think that is quite correct.

I also know people who smoke and when asked at least one parent smoked. I think that is a terrible legacy to leave a child. If your second hand smoke doesn't make them ill, perhaps they can take it up themselves and damage their own health.

Jesus Areasonablegal how about you read what I wrote properly, rather than jumping all over me. I didn't say smoking was fine if the mother was having a bad day. I was asking why it's ok to hit your child for that reason, but not to smoke.

And I didn't say 10 was nearly grown up. I said I didn't know my mum smoked till I was 10, and she didn't smoke round me till I was grown up.

Trifle, I'm not struggling to understand anything, but it's like some bizarre MN version of Godwin's Law: you can abuse your children in any way you like, but don't smoke within 500 miles of them. (No, I don't smoke or hit my children).

KitKats28: Neither do I.

Areasonable some women smoke during pregnancy and everything is perfect, some women don't smoke during pregnancy and everything goes wrong no. Smoking I don't feel does that much harm, and with monitoring placenta damage can be checked etc. For some people it's more dangerous to stop than for others, try not to judge. At one point it was recommended.

This thread has got massive since I first saw it but I'm confused as to what " user " OP is talking about with a silent googler!
Aside from being slightly lost on that, did OP come back or too scared after being shouted down?

There are some really strange views on this thread. This woman wasn't at the end of her tether. She had just spent at least 30 mins in a cafe chatting to her friend who had a very young child. Her children weren't causing problems at all (in fact, my 2 year old was noisier!!). Her reaction to her child's tears was completely over the top, aggressive, nasty. I bit my tongue hard to resist telling her to stop to be truthful and then, after she'd left, questioned why the hell I'd done that, leaving this child to continue living like that.

I think we turn away from these situations too often to be honest and I regret not speaking up. As I've said, I take comfort in the fact that I am absolutely sure that the friend was as upset as me and hope that she is in a position to support this woman and show her some better ways.
Toddlers, children, adults do not deserve to be treated as she treated this child yesterday. They really don't.

Flowers, I agree.
It sounds awful and I have been upset by it and didn't even witness it
I understand why you didn't say anything though and do believe you would have probably been shouted at and nothing would have come of it
I am very shocked smacking is legal but that's the world we live in so based on that, I don't think anyone could have helped even if you had called the police
I hope you're okay and not upset by the responses on here, some have been quite horrible aimed at you which I've also had on a recent thread of mine so I'm glad you came back!

To me it sounds as though the mother is havin a crap day. We all have them. Stressed out. Its half term. Baby kicks off. No sleep previous night because other bby teething. On her period. Kitchen sinks leaking. Its just been xmas and the cars broke so her finances are strained. We just dont. Maybe shes going thru divorce. Maybe she is bipolar/depressed/has anxiety. Although she is behaving unfairly.in public so ppl are free to.judge. maybe before judging and jumpin on mumsnet and saying the other child didnt flinch (maybe coz he was busy with staring at a bird or.playing) and u think it cud be on going at home. Why not think hav i had them days? U said urseld.kids wer happy and chatting and playing with urs so its not obvious there isongoing abuse. Be abit kinder and open ur mind abit then maybe u wud have seen tears in her eyes or the dark.circles under then or something

Annie592

A child breathing in second hand smoke vs a child being hit and yelled at and belittled and frightened? You really, honestly feel these are the same? Which would you pick- if you absolutely had to- for your own childhood? And no I don't smoke, and I'm not downplaying the effects of smoking- but they are not the same thing.

Yeah. Most of us know the answer to the question. The few who don't are posturing. How they cannot see how appalling it is to treat a young child like that, beats me. It's depressing.

Trifleorbust

Annie592: I didn't express any opinion about which is worse. There are similarities between the two situations and I have pointed these out, that's all.

Your analogy is poor and your logic is flawed. Surprise...