To be shocked at 7 year olds behaviour?

[Pollyanna12345]

DS just turned 7 last month.
Quite a loud extrovert personality but up to now had no issues with his behaviour aside from not being able to sit still for long so visits to restaurants and so on were always quite tricky.
We are more positive parents than anything else although don't like to label but have always done all we can to suit their needs ( DS2 is 4 and completely different character )
so have left restaurants and places where he can't seem to behave well in many a time
The last few weeks have been hard
School still seems fine and only just had PE and nothing mentioned other than lacks concentration at times and is quite fearless of danger but generally only does things he knows he's capable of so not really a concern but he just doesn't seem to listen to much we say and has an answer for absolutely everything
He argues back like an adult not a child and is extremely logical but not very emotional
A few examples are :
Throwing a massive rock in a farm as he was insistent it was not a rock, just a soft mass of mud so when it exploded it wouldn't break into pieces, it would just fall apart so I didn't need to worry it would smash anything
Spelling out things to his brother like " shut up " phonetically when he gets annoyed and when told off says he shouldn't be told off as his brother can't understand what he's saying
Ran past a door and accidentally shut his dad's finger in it and when explained he should apologise as although accidental he shouldn't have been running through the hallway - that was his dad's fault for coming out of the toilet at that specific moment in time
He also blames anyone and everyone for things that go wrong, so if he falls over someone distracted him for instance and takes no responsibility for his actions
He has a big personality and we've always been careful to embrace it but I wonder now if the respect is actually lacking because of that!
Anyone else with a " spirited " child like mine??

Of course I point all this out to him!
I am a bit shocked that a few examples are leading to a " complete lack of empathy "
I've acknowledged he doesn't take reaponsibilty for his actions but a lack of empathy I can't agree on as generally he is very empathetic and caring unless he feels he is being blamed and then it's someone else's fault.
Tbh I'm around lots of kids who act the same if not worse!

Trifle, perhaps but I'm still shocked a teacher would hold these views of such a young child
I have never heard my husbands parents talk about a child in such a way and they have been teaching for over 30 years!

Can you please let me know which restaurants you eat in so I can avoid them?

OP has said clearly that her DC DOES have empathy much of the time. Maybe you should taker her at her word!!!?

Pollyanna12345: Right, so it's someone else's fault? I wonder where your son gets that trait

You started a thread asking whether your son's behaviour is shocking. The answer is no, it isn't shocking. But it IS rude and it is IS cheeky. What it isn't is his fault - he is 7! It is your fault. You are the one who needs to take responsibility...for teaching him how to behave. If you don't do that, it won't be the last time someone tells you a home truth.

Not being able to sit nicely in a restaurant to the point you have to leave does seem very extreme for a NT 7 year old. 7 year olds who need gentle reminders to behave when eating out is probably more usual (talk a bit more quielty please, sit still, don't mess with your drink,etc) but not to the point the behaviour is so bad you actually have to leave, I wouldn't have thought that was usual.

Several posters have said his behaviour reminds them of SN and a few things did jump out at me as possibly not NT (not concentrating unless it's something he's interested in and being empathetic when it suits him and what sounds like 'ridged thinking' combined with the other behaviour you describe). I'm not saying that he isn't completely NT (obviously no one can possibly say from reading a few paragraphs on the Internet) but it is very common for this not to picked up on in schools so don't use this as a reason for everything being ok. It may be worth looking into a bit further.

Are you looking for help with managing his behaviour or reasons for his behaviour or a bit of both?

You probably have met lots of kids who are similar OP, as this parenting style of running your life around your child, not having boundaries and nothing ever being their fault is sadly very common nowadays. We see it in schools all the time - child gets told off, parent comes in and shouts at teaching staff and backs up child. It happens more and more and is symptomatic of a major issue with parenting in this country.

Sounds just like my DS 7, who has Aspergers. He has empathy in certain situations, acts up when anxious, cannot apologise or take any responsibility for his own actions. I wouldn't put to much emphasis on school picking anything up. They are not experts and not trained in picking up high-functioning autism. Our school had never really seen any issues with our DS and we decided to go privately for a diagnosis because of lots of horror stories we'd heard of CAMHS. They still look totally bewildered that he's autistic.

I'm also pretty shocked at some of these responses.
MN is a parenting website.
Cannot believe people calling a 7 yr old annoying and worse a sociopath or having sociopathic tendencies. Wtf?
Cos he argues back? Like all kids at some point.
People talking about empathy. Where's the empathy on the thread?
I know OP hasn't helped herself but it feels like every thread these days people just cannot wait to rip apart an OP and offer no help.

OP I am going to add to the chorus of helpful voices that you do need to create some strong boundaries. My 5 year old is good a teacher deflecting and arguing but if he was constantly answering back about something like hurting his dad/sibling I would send to room. I just wouldn't carry on an argument. 'You are wrong. What you did was hurtful. Come back when you're ready to apologise'.
Sometimes when he wants to argue the toss I just walk away.

I have just been reading 123 Magic (had it on my nightstand for ages). It does sound pretty straightforward to me and I wonder if I (and perhaps the OP?) tend to try and reason/explain/negotiate with our DC a wee bit too much? I know for me that comes from a place of trying not to be like a rather harsh parent who was a big fan of spanking. Perhaps that's you too OP? If it is, you might find that book helpful, as its methods are pretty gentle, but consistent and firm.

Bloody hell it sounds like a lot of the posters here are the ones who lack basic empathy. Why make such nasty comments about a young boy? Clearly OP is just listing the behaviour that worries her in the OP not all the kind, considerate, loving things her DS does. If anyone of us was reduced to a short list of our worst behaviour they wouldn't come off too well either!

You seem to be ignoring anyone that mentions asd/autism/aspergers/ADHD. Many parents of children with autism here have said they recognise your child's behaviour as being next to identical to their own children with autism. I'm another. I think you should think about it. My autistic child is rigid, argumentative, at times incredibly empathetic and lovely. There are lots of parents here who have children similar to yours but for some reason you seem to not acknowledge that.
Post on the sn chat board and you might get some (more) advice.

So 'spirited' 7 year old misbehaves at visit to farm - whole family goes home. 'Spirited' 7 year old can't or won't behave at a restaurant so everyone goes home. What this means, effectively is that your younger son is being given the same punishment as his brother for doing absolutely nothing wrong. How do you think your 'positive parenting' impacts on him in those situations?

I will share something I rarely talk about - my parents made huge allowances for me because of my health issues as a child. There is no question this impacted negatively on my sister. We have always had a terrible relationship and throughout our adult lives, she has periodically exploded with fury, screaming and shouting and crying at what she perceived to be unfair treatment as a child. I should add that we had wonderful, loving parents. We are both now in our 70s - she has never come to terms with it and never will. We meet for half an hour at Christmas, that is our total contact. Is that what you want for your children?

Trifle, serious question: why don't teachers say what they mean? If my child's teacher says he has problems paying attention I think that means he has problems paying attention and start wondering about SN. I wish we could all have more honest communication. I wouldn't mind if she said ocelot, ocelotcub is being a PITA in class. Please can we work together to sort this out?

WHY ARE YOU SO RELUCTANT TO CONSIDER ASD/ADHD ???

MANY POSTERS HERE HAVE CHILDREN WITH ASD. THEY ALL SAY THEY RECOGNISE THE BEHAVIOURS

YOU JUST KEEP SAYING NO CONCERNS HAVE BEEN RAISED BY THE SCHOOL, AND HE IS NOW IN YR 2

MANY PEOPLE HERE, MYSELF INCLUDED HAVE TOLD YOU THAT THE SCHOOLS DID NOT RECOGNISE OR RAISE THE PROSPECT OF ASD

MY DAUGHTER WAS NOT DIAGNOSED UNTIL SHE WAS 15 YEARS OLD SHE BEHAVED PERFECTLY IN PRIMARY SCHOOL APART FROM A LACK OF CONCENTRATION FOR SUBJECTS SHE DIDNT ENJOY

NONE OF THE PARENTING TECHNIQUES HAVE EVER WORKED ON HER - SHE ACTS LIKE AN ADULT, ALWAYS HAS, AND CAN LOGICALLY ARGUE BLACK IS WHITE. SHE HAS PDA

MANY HIGH FUNCTIONING CHILDREN ARE NOT DIAGNOSED UNTIL SECONDARY SCHOOL AS THEY ARE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO MASK IT UNTIL THE PRESSURE GETS TOO MUCH

MY SON WAS DIAGNOSED AT 9 YEARS OLD AND HE IS AN ABSOLUTE DREAM IN SCHOOL. THEY BLOODY LOVE HIM. But he is nothing like his sister, introverted, quiet, polite, follows rules to the letter

It is insulting that so many people on this thread have raised this as a possibility and you have dismissed us all out of hand. Believe us, until you start to look into this, you dont have a clue. It is almost as if you dont believe it could POSSIBLY be ASD, and I hope that it isnt, but if it is you are doing your son a massive disservice to not even consider looking into it, for whatever reason that may be, because it is something that could be massively supported or cause huge problems depending upon which way you go.

Oh and m DS's empathy was off the scale - he could recognise emotions from expression in tests designed for adults. He just lacks the ability to know what to do or how to react to those emotions

My DD was diagnosed as having ADHD at 14.
She is bright and masked it well at school, never got into trouble but lack of concentration was flagged at every parents evening. She was more challenging out of school. And she has a younger sibling who is completely different...
I know one friend's parent described her as 'wild' ... not to me obviously. Thought she didn't have clear enough boundaries - I would describe her as lively and spirited.
But another parent (who I knew better) described me as strict... which I did have to be at times to stop her getting so hyper she lost control and then would end up hurting herself or others - or breaking things...

Having said all that it does sound like your attitude to parenting is a bit misguided. Whether he had any SN or not.
He does need to have boundaries now and you need to reinforce them and firmly. Picking up on your consequences - it seems you leave somewhere - so everyone 'suffers' - including his younger sibling? That isn't fair, especially if the younger DS is behaving and as they get older it will become more difficult to do and will cause problems between them. You need to find a consequence that affects him and him alone.
I also know a child who was never given firm boundaries, excuses were always made for them and their behaviour deteriorated as they got older to the point they were being suspended from school on a regular basis, school refused and finally was asked not to come back....

Also the arguing back - DD1 would do that (still does), she could quite happily argue black was white and be quite convincing. It was often a way of avoiding doing something....as well as avoiding taking responsibility for her actions. I found at times the best way was to just say 'because I said so' ....and then talk about it later -when whatever she had been avoiding had been completed. Also on some things to clearly say I am not going to change my mind, this is not open to negotiation. But also to compromise on some things to show it was ok to that...
I also ignored some behaviour - didn't rise to it (DP found that really difficult and they used to have arguments that went on for hours with both of them getting more and more upset) - often she says things in anger that she later apologises for (on impulse). Really picking your battles so you try and avoid constantly falling out with them and it all being very negative.

and sorry for the shouting. Its just very frustrating and Im taking the reluctance to even consider and be so dismissive as quite insulting to us who parent ASD kids

My son has autism. High functioning. He is massively articulate and logical - he blows me away with the maturity of his responses at times. He's also the kindest, most generous little boy you could meet.
We actually discussed his empathy at his assessment because I didn't think it sat with my understanding of ASD. The psychiatrist explained that because he is high functioning, he has learned a lot of skills and strategies. Also that it's really common for people with ASD to relate to pets and younger children because they are more straightforward.

Your DS reminds me a lot of my DS who is currently been assessed for PDA and ADHD. I can say as demands through school increase. Demands on behaviour increase.

Do look them up and read them for yourself.

I personally hate the word spirited. It ime means allowed to do what they want.

You don't need a new thread .. You need to look at if this is SN..If you are so convinced it isn't then you need to deal with it as bad behaviour..As a previous poster said.. It doesn't matter if it is mud or rock it gets put down.

Cross post with rorty and with nettle
I meant to say the child with no boundaries parent suspected SN - and they fitted some of the characteristics -but they left trying to get it looked at properly until they were an older - Gillick competent and refused to go for diagnosis.

I hear what you are saying. I have a Dd awaiting a second assessment for asd. She is 12 now and had one at 5. Secondary seems to be her breaking point. However, they don't diagnose lightly so I understand op ignoring the suggestions as it takes a professional to do that.

Also. I don't believe the'code'. My DD has concentration issues but it means just that. They always emphasise that her behaviour is OK. Ds has been described as 'silly ' in certain classes which I take as naughty

yup my DD coped fine at primary. Broke down in secondary, ended up as school refusal and I had to home educate her. Not knowing she had ASD/PDA meant we were not prepared for that transition to secondary and it could have been so very different. When I say home schooled, I couldnt home school because she refused to do anything. She spent 18 months refusing to come out of her bedroom she was so traumatised from the LEA's attempts to get her back into school. After diagnosis (private, and then followed up by NHS referral to the country's specialist centre for PDA) we changed approach completely and she has gradually returned to us, but she now has a major disadvantage educationally. Was why we took DS to be diagnosed early, as didnt want the same thing happening. This is what I mean by it all going wrong if you dont know what you are doing. I didnt, and it did. My DD could have had a very different experience had we known, and would be at the same educational level as her peers, with the same choices they have, as she is very bright.

The other thing with how your DS behaves I.e badly at farm/restaurant and whole family leaves is not only is it dreadfully unfair on your other DC, but you are giving your DS and incredible amount of control. "Look what I can do ! "

Children act up with that amount of control as they don't actually like it and find lack of real boundaries from a adult in charge feels unsafe.

I imagine the amount of control DS has is a running theme?

Sounds like you are applauding bad behaviour as a positive thing. Sounds like he is used to the world revolving around him - which you see as a good thing. Sounds like he is under the impression that his wishes are paramount and the need to consider others is not applicable to him. You seem to condone and respect this attitude.
Rod - back - making.