AIBU in thinking this is not racist?

[KungFuPandaWorksOut16]

At a baby group, and one of the mothers starts commenting on a father who is there, mentioning how she wouldn't say no etc. Then asked what we think
One friend turned round and said no he isn't my cup of tea.
Original lady asked why
She responded she normally prefers white men, not black men.
Original lady tells her she should be disgusted in herself and having a view like that is highly racist. She then asked me do I agree if she was racist in what she said.

I told her I wouldn't view this as racist, just personal preference.
Is this actually racist? Or is original lady just being a bit over the top.

Posters like Narky really hurt rather than help discussion I think. All the "how odd"

I think that is very unfair considering the time I have taken to make several informed and perfectly valid posts on this thread.

I said "how odd" because I find it very odd. Not sure why I'm not supposed to say so?

ApplePaltrow21 I do not know if you male or female, black or white, I've dated men from many ethnicities and find some groups, like some Asian men, especially attractive. But ended up married to a white man as almost all the men who wanted to date me, were white.

This said I have known and loved people from a great/huge variety of places (platonically). I think black women are often especially attractive.

These thoughts are my own and I wish racism did not exist.

But the body of a woman any woman is not the property of any other but herself and to agrgue who she should contemplate sharing it with against her wishes is deeply misogynist in my view.

Italiangreyhound

I think you've been bringing up a great point in the misogyny angle. I happen to think making loud assertions of people you wouldn't be with is a bit gross generally and it's even more gross in the context of historical racism

BUT

there is something about people trying to constantly police women's preferences. The entire trans debate seems to be focused on women's spaces and women's preferences. No one seems to care who men fuck. The idea seems to be that women's desires are more adaptable and malleable and honestly rooted in a misogynistic idea that women's affections are some sort of reward for good behavior in society. That's an old patriarchal idea. We have to raise that here because it's relevant.

Here is my point though: I feel like having people constantly assert something to you, even if it's their opinion, can be harmful. Like, if someone believes that women belong in the bedroom and that they are only valuable if they are attractive, that may be their opinion and it may be their right. But if I as a woman hear that over and over, it may lead me to feel badly about myself. Especially in a society in which the structures already reinforce that.

If black people hear over that they are lesser and that they are not attractive, and that happens in the context of a society in which that is already reinforced, can you see how that would be harmful to them? And might be hurtful?

If black people hear over that they are lesser and that they are not attractive, and that happens in the context of a society in which that is already reinforced, can you see how that would be harmful to them? And might be hurtful?

Even if that is true, is it the responsibility of an individual woman? Does she have to not mention her sexuality and preferences because it might inform a societal harm?

italian - just saw the above post. i'm a black woman but i actually feel that attempts to police women's bodies are not decreasing but are changing. the trans debate for example seems to be 100% about policing women's bodies.

I personally think the solution is to try kindness i.e. i think if there's a way to avoid saying something is due to someone's race, i think it's better to do that. There's another thread on AIBU where a woman is considering ending a relationship over her partner's herpes. Everyone there seems to understand that saying "i reject you for something that is societally stigmatized AND that you can't change" is very hard to hear. Do you really feel that this isn't the case here?

Narky - I just think the tone of the thread changed when you started posting and I kind of wish it hadn't because I'd really enjoyed listening to everyone's experiences and opinions (on both sides).

"If black people hear over that they are lesser and that they are not attractive, and that happens in the context of a society in which that is already reinforced, can you see how that would be harmful to them?"

The thing is though, that most people that are saying it isn't racist aren't also saying that black people aren't attractive, just that if one individual woman has ruled out objectifying at least 98% of men as being instantly attractive to her because she likes pale skin and ginger hair...that in itself isn't her being racist, it's just her having a sexual preference, a weirdly specific one, but still, that's all it is.

Is it to do with the fact that societal ideals of attractiveness do favour Caucasians? Possibly...but then again it's hard to say as her type isn't exactly universally agreed as attractive either.

Narky - I just think the tone of the thread changed when you started posting and I kind of wish it hadn't because I'd really enjoyed listening to everyone's experiences and opinions (on both sides)

When I started posting back at the beginning of the thread, an hour after the OP?
If the tone changed at some point it was nothing to do with me, and it was pretty rude of you to pick on my posts which are saying the same as many others.

Even if that is true, is it the responsibility of an individual woman? Does she have to not mention her sexuality and preferences because it might inform a societal harm?

Is publicly stating that you prefer white men but will date some black men but not this particular black guy so societally important that we desperately need to say it even though it's so hurtful for other people to hear?

Does this really drastically limit women's discussion of their sexual preferences, behavior and needs if they can't announce in every single public venue that some black guys are fine to date but most are not?

I don't really get it. If in that same venue, someone had stated negative opinions about teenage mums or people on benefits, would we still be applauding that?

Essentially what I'm describing here are manners. Public manners. This is what politeness was supposed to do. Not to dictate people's fork usage, but to actually create a pleasant environment in which people can participate with some sense of social consequence. I think this new trend of societal oversharing has really thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

I think the tone changes when people start picking on individual posters.

I am firmly of the camp that women can fancy who the fuck they want for whatever reason they want. The policing of women's sexual desires it outrageous and offensive. The woman was pushed as to why she didn't fancy someone - why the fuck should she fancy him? Her right to only want to shag gingers, no one else's right to questions that.

"If in that same venue, someone had stated negative opinions about teenage mums or people on benefits, would we still be applauding that?"

They're value judgements, whether someone is sexually attractive to you isn't.

"Does this really drastically limit women's discussion of their sexual preferences, behavior and needs if they can't announce in every single public venue that some black guys are fine to date but most are not? "

Except that's not what she said.

Also, manners have kind of already gone out the window when people are sat around discussing whether they'd have sex with one of the parents at a toddler group.

Even if that is true, is it the responsibility of an individual woman? Does she have to not mention her sexuality and preferences because it might inform a societal harm?

Ops friend could have said "nah not my type" and changed topic swiftly, rather than bring up the colour of his skin.

Maybe I am some weird and overly PC woman but it would not ever occur to mention someone's ethnicity in this way and context. Its rude, and its likely to cause offence.
This if fucking basic, and learnt from being at school. you don't do this.
Even my fucking SIX year old knows this is a no no.

I think white privilege is so engrained on MN, really.

and.....OP could have let it lie,. rather than start a friend and hence open the fucking floodgates of inane comments like "well I don't tend to fancy black men, apart from Iris FUCKING Elba he is well fit

Well I think the tone changes when people decide that trying to shut down other people's points rather than actually engage with them is the goal of their posts.

It just seemed like people were really listening to each other and responding to each other's posts then suddenly a few people decided they were going to repeat the same point 10 or so times, just more aggressively each time.

If the issue is about policing women's sexual preferences, why not look at what's already been posted about it and engage with it? What's wrong with having a real discussion on the issue?

If in that same venue, someone had stated negative opinions about teenage mums or people on benefits, would we still be applauding that?

Saying you don't fancy someone isn't a negative opinion. You aren't saying they aren't fanciable to anyone, just that they don't ring your bell.

Is talking to your friends publicly stating anything? You say " if they can't announce in every single public venue"...do you know anyone stating their sexual preferences in various public venues? Are their some kinds of shows?

You are suggesting that womens private conversations are somehow leading to mass hurt of people who aren't there to hear them, and that women should not make any reference to their sexual preferences in order not to contribute to societal tropes.
I find the policing of women and their sexuality to be misogynistic and unfair.

Oversharing in general, totally with you. But to pick on this specifically is not ok.

They're value judgements, whether someone is sexually attractive to you isn't.

Nope. Choosing a relationship with someone is not a value judgment. It's a preference that can't be questioned.

I won't date people with children; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people who were single moms; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people with disabilities; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people with autism; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people from [insert geographical region here]; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people who are overweight; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people without a degree; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people who come from broken homes; I'm just not attracted to them

And so on. No one is questioning your preference. But at which point is arguing for the right to state it loudly just being rude?

*Maybe I am some weird and overly PC woman but it would not ever occur to mention someone's ethnicity in this way and context. Its rude, and its likely to cause offence.
This if fucking basic, and learnt from being at school. you don't do this.
Even my fucking SIX year old knows this is a no no.

I think white privilege is so engrained on MN, really. *

I don't think you're weird - I completely agree, on every point.

I don't think anyone is arguing for the tight to state it loudly - where did the loud bit come from? Oh that's right, you made that bit up because otherwise you wouldn't have had a valid argument.

But at which point is arguing for the right to state it loudly just being rude?

Is anyone arguing for that right? And where is the suggestion that anyone was loud?
I would like to know why you think its your job to police other womens conversations about their sexuality?

"I won't date people with children; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people who were single moms; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people with disabilities; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people with autism; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people from [insert geographical region here]; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people who are overweight; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people without a degree; I'm just not attracted to them
I won't date people who come from broken homes; I'm just not attracted to them"

They were talking about how he looked, there are at the most two categories in your list that can be seen.

They're not the same at all and you're completely missing my point if you think they are.

None of them, not the woman who didn't fancy him or any of the ones saying they'd sleep with him were basing any of their conversation on anything other than what he looked like.

Is talking to your friends publicly stating anything?

This woman obviously wasn't because she received immediate pushback from other people there. They're in a baby group, not friends.

And honestly, I've read plenty of AIBUs about men making sexual comments about other women (and how fuckable they are) or about how they don't like fat women or whatever that were considered rude because they made the woman there feel uncomfortable. Privacy never seems to be a defense for men's behavior.

You are suggesting that womens private conversations are somehow leading to mass hurt of people who aren't there to hear them, and that women should not make any reference to their sexual preferences in order not to contribute to societal tropes.

Okay, firstly I very explicitly didn't say this.

Secondly, you keep harping on about privacy but I'm not sure why. Probably 50% of conversations on mumsnet are about the private conversations between an OP and her DP/DH. These conversations are often classified as misogynistic or contributing to misogyny even though they are "private". If you don't think that the personal can be political or that structural inequality can work itself out in private gatherings, then how can you even believe in feminism? It's literally the heart of feminism.

The thing about "people not being there to hear them" - . So you'd say this stuff if a black person isn't there but not if they are there? In fact, that's interesting. Why not? Why wouldn't you say to a black person's face that you don't find them attractive at all? Why wouldn't you say all of this in front of black people? Explain in exhaustive detail how you would never date them.

Because I bet all the people talking a really big talk on this thread have never done that.

The fact that they simply don't feel that sexual attraction when they look at certain people is beyond you? how odd.

The fact that you cannot construct a meaningful defense of your position and just keep churning out completely irrelevant analogies leaves me immune to your criticism.

Well, I wouldn't say to anyone's face that I didn't fancy them. I wouldn't say to anyone's face that I did fancy them, mind you, unless we were in bed together and naked, probably.

I certainly didn't hear that the lady in the OP had explained in exhaustive detail why she wouldn't date a black man. You are inventing things to bolster your argument, which suggests your argument is not a strong one.

"I've read plenty of AIBUs about men making sexual comments about other women (and how fuckable they are) or about how they don't like fat women or whatever that were considered rude because they made the woman there feel uncomfortable. Privacy never seems to be a defense for men's

It was a shitty conversation...still doesn't automatically make her racist because she has a sexual preference that includes pale skin.