To ask scots if they actually like Nicola sturgeon

[Karen85]

Just out of curiosity really because she and her voice make me cringe when i hear her on tv or radio.

Love scots though please don't get me wrong.

The turnout figures tell their own story I think. Turnout in Scotland was indeed 67.2%, which was lower than the U.K. average (72.2%) suggesting the EU mattered slightly less to Scotland than elsewhere. It was also significantly lower than the 2014 referendum (85%), which again gives an indication of how important people thought the respective votes were. This might explain in part the lack of increased support for independence despite the Brexit vote.

In general as well, you would probably take a non vote as a vote for the status quo since if you were really minded for change then you would make an effort. To me therefore the vote to remain in the UK is probably higher and the same for remaining in the EU. The big mistake being made is assuming that a vote to remain in the brexit referendum is a vote for the SNP and consequently a vote of being unhappy with being part of the UK. That is completely counter-intuitive and is just the SNP using it for their own aims.

I'm gutted about Brexit, so gutted.

It has illustrated how powerless we are politically because we are so much smaller than England.

If I thought that we could afford independence and stay in the EU I'd vote for independence in a heart beat.

I am definitely left of centre and I have really struggled with the Tories being in power for so much of my life despite Scotland voting in Labour and now SNP.

It's such a helpless feeling. I wish we could find a way to respect the will of all of the 4 different countries in the union but with one country having a much bigger population than the other three it's very difficult.

The potential impact of Brexit on the peace process is particularly distressing and got very little attention from the leave campaigners.

I'm just bloody cross about the way things are going and I don't know how to fix it.

One thing I would say is that I have very little in common with the political leaders in Westminster but I can relate to NS. Not necessarily saying relatabity is essential in a great leader but it's quite nice.

I'll stop rambling now....

In general as well, you would probably take a non vote as a vote for the status quo since if you were really minded for change then you would make an effort.

I think there's some truth to this, although I would think it meant people didn't really care one way or the other more than anything else. If the non-voters had felt strongly about remaining (in the UK or EU) they'd be more likely to make the effort to vote remain.

The big mistake being made is assuming that a vote to remain in the brexit referendum is a vote for the SNP and consequently a vote of being unhappy with being part of the UK.

Totally agree with this, and indeed the polls after the Brexit vote would also suggest that this is true.

Surely a vote to remain is indicative that you would prefer to remain in the EU [and therefore since the UK is coming out of the EU, in an independent Scotland within the EU]. Not necessarily for the SNP, but for the EU.

Surely a vote to remain is indicative that you would prefer to remain in the EU [and therefore since the UK is coming out of the EU, in an independent Scotland within the EU]. Not necessarily for the SNP, but for the EU.

It would indicate that you wanted the UK to remain in the EU, the question on the ballot paper. It doesn't give any information about whether you would rather be in the EU than in the UK (even assuming an independent Scotland would be in the EU, which is far from guaranteed). It's perfectly possible to be in favour of being in the EU but even more in favour of being in the UK, and the polls seem to suggest this is the case on the whole.

It is possible that you might want to be in the EU but might prefer to be in a UK which is out of the EU, that's true. But it is also possible that you want to be in the EU and are unhappy being in a UK which is out of the EU.

If someone would prefer to remain in the EU, why would they prefer to be in a UK which is out of the EU?

Nyx that would dependent on the relative importance of the EU to that person. It may be that being in both the UK and EU was someone's ideal scenario, but as you say that's not the reality. For some, being in the EU might trump anything, and for them it might make sense to leave the UK and hope we could rejoin the EU. However, if being in the UK meant more to someone than being in the EU, they would vote to remain in a UK outside of the EU because the UK was the more important factor.

Unless you're asking why someone would prioritise the Uk over the EU? In which case there are numerous practical reasons, including the fundamental issues of currency and economy, shared resources including defences, open borders etc. Then there are more emotional reasons like shard history and culture, family and friends that span the border, or maybe just wanting to be British. i imagine it's quite individual.

Scotland leaving the Union / UK wouldn't make any difference to 'family/friends' in the separate countries and there needn't be 'borders', culture and history are still there and wouldn't change. As an island I'm sure shared defence could be negotiated and worked out.

I think Scotland could manage her economy better out of the union.

Agree with Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

I voted no and remain but I'd rather be in the UK and out of the EU than out of the UK and in the EU....or indeed what the SNP can actually offer which is out of both. And actually I was a very close remain voter. I feel our relationship with the UK is far more important that the one with the EU. How SNP supporters think that we will have greater power/representation of our views in the EU as an independent country I have no idea, it's even more remote and less representative than Westminster. However as it isn't going to happen in my lifetime, I'm not going to give it too much headspace.

I think there's some truth to this, although I would think it meant people didn't really care one way or the other more than anything else. If the non-voters had felt strongly about remaining (in the UK or EU) they'd be more likely to make the effort to vote remain

I get what you are saying here, but I also think that "not caring" is also about being ok with the status quo. But as I think we broadly agree I'm not arguing :)

Scotland leaving the Union / UK wouldn't make any difference to 'family/friends' in the separate countries and there needn't be 'borders', culture and history are still there and wouldn't change. As an island I'm sure shared defence could be negotiated and worked out.

We'll have to agree to disagree (I find myself saying this a lot lately!). I for one would be fairly heartbroken if my Britishness was stripped away as I am quite proud to be British (and Scottish) and of our shared history, and I wouldn't want my English relatives to become foreigners. But then, I don't really think of Scotland and England as being separate countries in any real sense of the word - to me it's a technicality. To me, it would made a very big difference. The border issue becomes a fairly significant problem if Scotland rejoins the EU, as the EU will insist on free movement and the rest of the UK will have to insist that that movement doesn't make it's way to England (primarily, as it mostly does currently). Shared defence may well be 'worked out', but I'd feel a lot happier living in a nation that was able to defend itself without having to rely on others.

I think Scotland could manage her economy better out of the union.

There's very little evidence that this is true, either from current figures or predicted future revenues, but StatisticallyChallenged already covered this very nicely earlier in the thread.

It is of course quite individual. Practical reasons of currency and economy - many debates to be had there. Defences - I am not feeling very defended as part of the UK; however I do feel somewhat of a target. Borders – like the borders Brexiters want to impose between ourselves and the rest of Europe? Of course I am being led to believe that on Scotland becoming independent, an unassailable Border will immediately rise up (or drop down) which will be uncrossable and trade will just not happen. Unthinkable. A bit like in Ireland/Northern Ireland.

History will always be there to look at whether or not the UK is united. Shared culture? As opposed to English culture, Scottish culture, Welsh culture, Northern Irish culture? What is British culture (as opposed to any of those?) In what way would you be different by having 'Britishness stripped away'? Sounds painful.

Family and friends will of course still be there. I have family and friends in the UK and Europe and out of it - in Canada, India, America, Europe, and my voting isn't affected by that. Why would it be?

To me Scotland is a sovereign country and Britain is not one country.

Fascinating how many identify positively as British. To me it's a passport, and a legal identity, and no more. It doesn't add anything to my Scottish identity. In fact right now being British is even more embarrassing than it usually is. To me being European has always trumped everything, which is why I am very much gutted right now. Wishing I had a second EU nationality!

Nyx these things are incredibly personal, and while I like being British and am proud to be so, you obviously feel very differently. Neither position is inherently 'wrong'.

I would feel as though my identity had been stripped away if I was no longer British, and I sincerely hope I am never made to choose between different aspects of my heritage. Of course the British (English and Scots) have a shared history and culture going back centuries. Are you suggesting that we just happen to be neighbours but otherwise have little to do with each other?

The practical challenges are also very real and fundamental problems for an independent Scotland, and I think the only way we could possibly remain completely borderless would be to stay out of the EU, which seems to be the opposite of the proposition on the table just now.

Agree with Nyx.

The 'stripped of britishness' and family becoming 'foreigners' thing to me seems very emotive and unnecessary but it's subjective of course.

The 'stripped of britishness' and family becoming 'foreigners' thing to me seems very emotive and unnecessary but it's subjective of course.

You don't agree, I get that. But that is the way I feel about it, and its the way a lot of other Scots feel about it, and minimising that feeling will not endear people to your cause. For a lot of us the thought of another referendum is sickening and unnecessary.

Re: borders

www.commonspace.scot/articles/10115/new-report-independent-scotlands-customs-and-borders

Nope I live in NE Scotland and I can't stand the SNP, her nor salmons when it was him in charge

I do get the intensity of feelings that come into it. Sorry to seem to be minimising those feelings, it's not personal or intentional. Of course feelings run high on both sides of these debates and it can be upsetting.

"How SNP supporters think that we will have greater power/representation of our views in the EU as an independent country I have no idea, it's even more remote and less representative than Westminster."
I genuinely don't understand this viewpoint. Scotland would be an independent country within the EU. We would have the same veto as the other countries. In the U.K. we don't have even that. Our laws are already in line with EU standards or whatever. We broadly agree with EU values. Are you saying that currently Teresa May isn't our real prime minister but just a figurehead? I don't think so.

Scotland would be an independent country within the EU. We would have the same veto as the other countries.

Well, that's not on the cards in the foreseeable future though is it?

At present I think Scotland has about 59 MPs in Westminster out of about 650, so roughly 9.1% representation (higher than our population which is about 8.2% of the UK). In the EU we have 6 MEPS out of 751 so about 0.8% representation (population is about 1% of the EU). The UK as a whole has 73/751 - 9.7% so only slightly more representation than Scotland has in the UK and a bit less than the relative population which is 12.6% of the EU). So, in order to maintain the same level of influence at MEP level, we'd need to have around another 65 or so MEPs. I'm not up for paying for that and that would give vastly too much representation per head of the population so i'd be inclined to think that the number of MEPS within Scotland probably wouldn't change. Additionally as much as NS thinks she is the centre of the universe, the fact is that Scotland as a stand alone country would never have the level of influence that the UK has in the EU aside from representation at MEP level. I really can't see Angela and the other main country leaders rushing to cosy up to Nicola. so we'd be left with 0.8% influence instead of 9.1%

I appreciate it's not quite as simple as that but it illustrates what we'd be swapping.

But, as I say, never going to happen anyway as we'll be at the back of the queue desperately trying to work out a way to meet the criteria whilst having pissed of the country we do 4 times more trade with than the EU as a whole.

Wankers. It's (in my understanding) not a 'queue' and as we are currently in the EU our laws etc are already in line with requirements. Indy Scotland would be 'fast tracked' back in.

Lol no. it wouldn't be fast tracked, we need to met the criteria and we don't. Other countries would veto any attempts at short cuts.