To ask scots if they actually like Nicola sturgeon

[Karen85]

Just out of curiosity really because she and her voice make me cringe when i hear her on tv or radio.

Love scots though please don't get me wrong.

So what you're saying Calyx is that you've had enough of experts as they're not telling you what you want to hear....

Not at all. I just think Scotland in the Union and independent Scotland are different and those figures can't show what would happen.

Also I believe Scotland could stay in if independence happens before Brexit.

Independence will not happen before Brexit. The UK government does not have the time or indeed the want to not only negotiate Brexit and the complexities stemming from that to then have to take part in a campaign and then even more complex negotiations with Scotland should a vote end in a yes. We had our turn in 2014 it didn't go the way some posters here wanted and I am sorry for them as I hold no ill feeling towards them bit please be realistic there currently is no real evidence attitudes have changed greatly in the favour of the yes side therefore it needs to be put to bed for the foreseeable future.

You're right. Scotland in the union benefits from economies of scale, lower cost of borrowing, greater presence on the world stage. All of which and more would be lost if Scotland was independent. And that's before you start with the conservative estimate of £18bn start up costs.

Blind faith isn't going to cut it.

So, we're not allowed to use current figures because Scotland could do better even thought pretty much every economist worth their salt believed Scotland would decline at least initially - because we can't know what would happen. So in this case we are supposed to ignore both the current facts and the expert opinions because they don't agree with your view.

But we're also supposed to believe Scotland could stay in the EU even though we were repeatedly told no, and the facts all point to it being a No, and various countries have said no...because you'd like it to be the case.

Any we're supposed to believe Scotland could:

• get permission for another referendum
• hold that referendum

-negotiate succession from the UK

• become independent

-negotiate with the EU to somehow take over the UK membership -gain the consent of all the EU member states

• set up our own central bank, currency and stabilise the economy
• and join the EU all within 2 years (since Article 50 is imminent)

Unicorns indeed.

You missed out the most important t step.

-win the referendum

Not looking likely at the moment...

You can use any figures, I am not saying you're not allowed anything.

The yes side have a lot of work to do to gain support for independence.

I want it to happen and I know all those barriers are there. I think and Nicola Sturgeon thinks that we can do it.

Unicorns yay

You've just propose something completely unfeasible (and yes Trixy, you're right I did miss that!).

Nicola Sturgeon doesn't remotely think Scotland will become independent and take over the UK's EU membership before the UK leaves, especially now that parliament have cleared the triggering of article 50 - she knows she needs to be seen to be fighting to keep Scotland in but I don't for a moment believe she thinks that's on the table.

There's a point where belief has to meet reality, especially if you want to convince more than half of a country to change its mind. The unicorns approach was tried last time. It didn't work.

We'd be out of the EU regardless - there's no mechanism for us to remain in, we'd have to leave, reapply, be accepted and meet their criteria. Not so likely given the state of our budget

And Spain definitely and most likely France and possibly Italy and Belgium refusing approval for fear of giving succour to their own disgruntled separatists.

I made the latter point to a fervent indy and fervent remain supporter. Her response was "Germany would support it, they'll tell France and Spain to support it. It's really Germany's voice that counts."

I'm as fervent a remainer as you will find but I was boggle eyed by this. The irony of supporting an entity which she thinks is dominated by one superpower seemed to escape her.

..and everyone listening to Germany and doing what it thinks best really worked for a lot of people last time...

The EU without the UK in it is not something I'd want to rush to join. I fear that Brexit may spell the end of the EU. It would be really foolhardy to rush into something without seeing what the fallout from Brexit is.

The EU without the UK in it is not something I'd want to rush to join. I fear that Brexit may spell the end of the EU. It would be really foolhardy to rush into something without seeing what the fallout from Brexit is.

I agree Trixy.

Marine Le Pen is promising a referendum on EU membership should they gain power in France, that is not beyond the realms of possibility either and given their issues over the last few years, I can see Frquitter happening.

Why would Germany piss off some of its major partners in the EU to force admittance of Scotland against their wishes? It needs Spain, France and Italy a lot more than it needs Scotland.

I am sure the EU will allow Scotland to join as long as we meet their criteria (which we don't currently). I don't however believe as many pro Indy folk do that the EU is going to fall over itself and giving us some special deal. Unfortunately I think NS has played a bad hand going over to the EU and showing how desperate she is for Scotland to remain, we need them more than they need us.

Yes, they would let Scotland join if it meets the criteria but there would be no special conditions. It would mean the Euro and Schengen, there is no question of keeping the pound.
There is a FB group "Germans for Scottish Independence" with about 1800 members, they are planning a demonstration at The Hague in April some time. Maybe they are mistaking Scotland for Tibet.

It would mean a commitment to join the Euro once Scotland had met the criteria. You're not actually allowed to join the Eurozone until you've met the criteria Greece is in problems because it fudged the requirements

Hungary for example has joined the EU but is not yet using the Euro as it doesn't have the appropriate track record.

It is however possible to continue to never quite meet the criteria and therefore continue to use your own currency personally I like the ability to use the € across Europe without having to change at every border, been there, done that as a student

The key point there is your own currency...

So, is the suggestion that we leave a union with our biggest trading partner (not to mention the shared history, culture, values, military etc. going back centuries), ignore all the current financial data and the predictions of virtually all experts (unless they're talking about Brexit, obviously, because those predictions are facts), in the hope that the EU will continue to be stable, fast track our application, waive all its entry criteria, not implement the vetos that several states have said they'll use, and give us a special deal so that we retain all our current benefits? And then we'll fudge the situation so that we never have to use the Euro, but instead will use...what exactly?

If this is the plan, I suspect that the Nats will be disappointed a second time!

I think there will be rumblings from other EU countries to leave but not until they see how the UK fares.

caly your views are actually quite ignorant. I get that you want Scotland to be independent however you are ignoring all the facts around how much Scotland costs to run and how much we produce to say it would be different if we were independent. how would it be different? do you think all these industries are going to pop up all of a sudden to give Scotland greater revenues? seriously your in cuckoo land.

Peggy - how are we so unequipped to run our own country? When other small countries can do it perfectly well? We have more resources than many. I guess you think we are too wee, too poor and too stupid (or 'ignorant'). We aren't. We have just been told for years now that we are.

I thought John Swinney, SNP coined that phrase NYX, rather than Peggy.

I guess you think we are too wee, too poor and too stupid (or 'ignorant'). We aren't. We have just been told for years now that we are

The only people who have said that are the ones on your side. It's supposed to be something Unionists say but isn't.

On the other hand Unionists definitely were told we were too scared, too selfish , and my mother in law's favourite, just too old to vote for independence.