To wonder why the massive right wing upsurge

[RocketQueenP]

Disclaimer: I am no expert on politics clearly !! But as a woman, a mother, and working class (don't like defining myself as that but I don't earn loads and will never be rich so I am) in the 21st century I class myself as fairly left wing and vote that way myself because, if I'm honest, it's in my interests and also I want a fairer society

This isn't about Donald trump as such (the man should have his own bloody talk section!) But with Donald trump now president, the Conservatives in power in the U.K. for the second time with (it seems), no hope of that changing, why has most of the world in general just gone so right wing? Or does it just seem that way?

Again I am sorry if this is a thick question 😳 Genuinely wondering

I did well under the labour government

I was a lone parent when I left my horrible ex. and while I was skint I had my full rent paid had enough to pay bills and eat and wasn't constantly bullied and pressures to get a job. I then went to uni and got a bursary (nursing) plus tax credits etc . I got a council house as well when my private landlord upped the rent and I couldn't afford it.

Im glad I'm in a good relationship now cos I wouldn't leave if I wasn't because universal credit is a horrific mess and basically there to punish people for being poor

I imagine that many women will stay in horrible relationships cos the alternative is so much worse

I had a great time personally and economically under Labour governments.

Good for you. Not everyone did however, just like every government.

Actually to say I did "well" was pushing it but I think it was a lot kinder to people who had for whatever reason ended up in the shit. unlike nowadays.

It's a reaction to the failure of centre-left politics. When the middle shows itself incapable of ruling us fairly, people are driven to more extreme ends of the political spectrum. People are more vocal about being right wing now, people are more vocal about being left wing now too - it's just we tend to only notice the views we don't agree with.

What has recent political history shown us? That the elite don't care about the rest of society. That politicians will say anything to get elected, and break their promises when they do. That government will happily spend money today in the knowledge that by the time it needs to be paid back, they'll be long gone and someone else will have to pick up the pieces.

Why did Trump win? Because Clinton lost. She came across as a know-it-all who people "had" to vote for because she knew better than they did. People generally dislike being told they are idiots, even if often they are.

Why did Leave win? Because the Remain camp were incredibly arrogant and lied through their teeth, presenting Doomsday scenarios and telling the public they would be morons to vote Leave. That the British should be happy to accept unrestricted immigration, be treated as the piggy bank of Europe and generally just shut up and do as they are told.

Remainers say Leave campaigners lied (they did), but conveniently forget the lies the Remain campaign told. Remain could have won, and probably should have. If they had been honest, if they had explained why Britain is better off with more immigration and better off in the EU, instead of saying we should just accept that we are better off this way, and if we can't work out why, we're racist idiots.

I don't particularly fear the rise of the vocal-right. The centre will trounce the right provided that it is open, fair and honest.

Most people who express right-wing views like "ban immigrants" are not inherently racist, certainly not inherently right-wing. What they are concerned about is their living standards, the money in their pocket, the lives of their children and everyday "trivialities" like that. Most of these increasingly vocal people would happily vote for, indeed love, a centre-left party if that party improved living standards and created a fair society where hard work pays well, where everyone who wants buy a home is realistically able to do so if they can hold down a job.

The "vocal right" is ripe for the taking. They just need to be shown what's in it for them. Give them lower taxes, higher incomes and better living standards, and they will evolve into the quiet, contented centre.

Your last but one paragraph sums up a lot of my friends and family Barinaxe. I think that's probably very accurate.

In the UK we have had a right wing government to varying degrees since 1979. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown did not lead left-wing governments- by no stretch of the imagination were they left-wing (PFI hospitals, bailing out banks and allowing them to continue to pay large salaries, never nationalising anything of note).

It just seems that the nastier right wing element (such as that personified by the paper that supported the Blackshirts) have become a bit more vocal.

That's true Forall

No, the Guardian is resolutely centrist now, just look at the coverage of Corbyn. Of course, any paper is always a mishmash of different views and they do have a couple of journos that are slightly more left, but their politics are still largely liberal/social democrat rather than fully redistributive. It has been, for some time, the voice of a north London media bubble that is very out of touch

So relieved to read this written by someone who obvs knows their stuff. I consider myself leftwing and find a lot that's written in the Guardian quite scary, but couldn't put my finger on where they are coming from.

GardenGeek your post at 18.49 is spot on. I find it fascinating the knots some of the left, or what thinks of itself as the left (including the Guardian) ties itself in. The reaction to the referendum has, I think, revealed a really deep seam of disdain for working class people amongst some of the left/pseudo left, which is quite strange really.

What I find quite interesting (and sad) is that this doesn't seem, for many, to have led on to a reappraisal of their politics, which you would have thought would be needed when faced with such stark contradictions and dissonance. Or even if not reappraisal, just a modicum of doubt or humility.

I do wonder if the shrillness and nastiness of some of the post-referendum name-calling actually has it's roots in this dissonance

garden I am a swing voter I find attaching yourself to one party for life quite scary and narrow minded.

I have however voted Labour every time I have voted and Tory once. I cannot however ever see myself voting Labour ever again at this juncture.

Eventually, I voted to leave, and I did so because I read one of the Brussels inner circle suggesting that only those with degrees should be permitted a vote as no one of lesser intelligence could understand the issues

Wow. This does not surprise me one jot. But still deeply worries me.

The reaction to the referendum has, I think, revealed a really deep seam of disdain for working class people amongst some of the left/pseudo left I think same disdain is shown in Brussels see above comment.

Rocket many of the new core of Labour - John Mcdonell etc are widely believed to be hard core Eurosceptics and have been for many years. One of the best speeches in the commons yesterday to remain in the EU was from Tory Big Beast Ken Clarke.

Millions of people suffered badly in very many ways under Blairs long tenure but its nice to know you were ok op

Some really really interesting posts on this thread though from all points of view

Barin

Excellent post.

Debbie I didn't want to come across as smug or anything. I was only saying that I was financially ok under labour because who is now in the position I was ten years ago, (which was a skint single parent) would be in a big pile of shit under the Conservatives.

Ffs posting on my phone. I meant to say anyone who is now in the position I was ten years ago will be in the shit

Because They don't look after the vulnerable that's what I'm saying. In fact they actually blame and demonise them. (Read "Chavs")

Just a quick note . Yes agree there is a right wing surge at the moment however please do not assume that everyone who voted Leave in the referendum is a rabid right winger ...... I am a 44 year old Communist and I voted Leave. (Just saying)

Too much hard right and too much hard left.
No meeting in the middle, both sides despising and condemning one another.
Both are wrong IMO. There needs to be more balance.

Oh I know that User. Its just from what I've personally seen leavers were very far from left wing 😳 And were ukip types

I am a small c conservative who has always voted Labour in GEs. 'Blue Labour' as it has been characterised.

It was getting harder to justify to myself but plumped for Milliband - social housing was issue that swung it, although a friend who works in sector said I was wrong to think there would be any major difference between either Con or Lab in reality..

I have had enough of leftness as it is practised now. For example I think it's prudent to welcome Trump. I personally think Chinese premier was more ethically difficult and I accept that he was honoured. I am just not pure enough of thought to be on the left.

I just want a practical party that helps the majority and doesn't over exert itself on virtue signalling. Clement Atlee had it right imvho.

scary: as an academic I am not automatically impressed by people with degrees, even postgrad degrees.

I'm on the left and have very strong reservations about the EU. In other circumstances, I might have voted to leave. But the right is on the march, as is nationalism. I understand some of the leave arguments, but Europe has, on the whole, been good for security and avoiding war on the continent for well over 40 years. Had Yugoslavia been in, there would not have been a civil war, for example. In the current climate I would much rather be a member of the EU than either unaligned or looking to make deals with the protectionist and, to put it mildly, unpredictable Trump. The commonwealth is close to useless in strategic terms, so what else is there? Looking to make deals on an individual basis is costly, time consuming and highly risky.

So, while I have major reservations and I don't subscribe to some remain arguments, on the whole, I'd would rather be in that club right now. For all its faults, it retains a core of liberal values which chime with my core beliefs. While Brexiters are not a homogenous group, on the whole, they are made up of people with whom I profoundly disagree on matters of human rights, economic policy and IR.

Higher standards of living and lower taxes are really not possible. I'd like any politician to be honest about that. Health, education, roads and so in are expensive. Taxes are pretty low, especially for higher earners.

I too would consider myself a swing voter, would support the lib dems on many things but dislike their post-brexit opportunism and arrogance.

Like Gardengeek I consider myself more left-leaning than many friends and family, but would consider myself centre Right.

The Blair years with the spin doctoring, PC brigade (yes I will use that term), liberal 'right-on' ideologies that were shoved down people's throats, have a lot to answer for. While all the while their real ideology was neo-liberalism, kow towing to the bankers and real estate managers, introducing tuition fees, bleeding the treasury dry but not looking after ordinary people's pensions.

Why a surge to the right - perhaps because people are fed up with globalisation and neo-liberalism. It's done nothing for them.

The neo-liberal dogmas being slavishly followed by Remainers were partly why I voted Leave. Did the big businesses, elites, wealthy politicians, celebrities, financial service managers, Brussels bureaucrats and bankers who all told us to vote Remain honestly not think people wouldn't understand that they only had their own interests at heart? They honestly seemed to think that they would get their own way not matter what, hence the shock at the result and the knee-jerk labelling of bigots, racists etc, showing the real disdain in which they regard any one not in their circles. These include Left, Guardian-reading circles.

Osborne etc and other neo-liberal Remainers put the economy above all else but they didn't seem to understand that for many people a) the economy is not above all else because other things like national sovereignty are very important too and b) the economy for many many years has benefited the rich and not the poor.

Sorry my point kind of derailed a bit into a Brexit discussion. Not unrelated though.

20nil is exactly right. I know which club I'd rather be in.

I actually don't believe many voters on either side understood EU Law/EU institutions/the importance of the EU, it's just that Remainers were more aware of the potentially horrendous consequences of leaving as well they might be because Brexit is going to be one horrific mess

tulips sorry, I meant your post! Persuasively argued.

Tulips but neoliberalism is right wing isn't it ?

Confused

Sorry I really am thick

20nil, I am with you on all the points you make regarding the virtues of the EU, EXCEPT that I don't believe the graduates of the Ecole Nationale d'Administration who by and large run Brussels bureaucracy believe the same things. They think they know best, and that the rest of us should do as we are told. Sorry, I want more debate than that and am determined to throw the spanner.