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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why the massive right wing upsurge

296 replies

RocketQueenP · 01/02/2017 11:25

Disclaimer: I am no expert on politics clearly !! But as a woman, a mother, and working class (don't like defining myself as that but I don't earn loads and will never be rich so I am) in the 21st century I class myself as fairly left wing and vote that way myself because, if I'm honest, it's in my interests and also I want a fairer society

This isn't about Donald trump as such (the man should have his own bloody talk section!) But with Donald trump now president, the Conservatives in power in the U.K. for the second time with (it seems), no hope of that changing, why has most of the world in general just gone so right wing? Or does it just seem that way?

Again I am sorry if this is a thick question 😳 Genuinely wondering

OP posts:
YokoUhOh · 01/02/2017 21:09

rocket is right about meo-liberalism - it's right wing; sorry tulip I got your post mixed up with another - I don't agree with your assertions.

TulipsInAJug · 01/02/2017 21:23

Yes Neo-Liberalism is a right-wing ideology but it was appropriated by New Labour and has been the ideology followed by the EU.

My point was that Remainers put it above all else, but it's mostly benefitted the rich, not the lower or middle classes. The arguments they used were self-serving and people saw straight through them.

I don't agree the Right is 'on the march'. That sounds alarmist. Trumpism, and Brexixt to a lesser extent, are perfectly understandable reactions to how Neo-Liberalism and New Labour-esque policies have let vast sections of society down.

RocketQueenP · 01/02/2017 21:33

Really interesting and enlightening discussion thanks to everyone contributing

I think maybe I know more than i thought about all this

OP posts:
20nil · 01/02/2017 21:36

sock: I don't disagree though I don't think they run the EU alone. On balance, the values that make it into law head in the right general direction. I'm thinking here of workers' rights, abortion, contraception etc...

As I said, many problems, and no doubt corruption, red tape, careerism etc... but no more or worse than many national bureaucracies. And certainly no more disdainful of 'ordinary people' than many British Brexiters. Had Johnson et al had a bit more respect for the voting public, they might have refrained from lying about the NHS, Turkey etc... Likewise for some remainers. The idea that one group was more patronising is absurd and has become a worrying rally cry among some dodgy and arrogant types like Redwood, Gove etc.. Their attempts to speak for the people are offensive when they've never shown the slightest evidence of giving a shit about the poor, JAMs or whatever you want to call them.

20nil · 01/02/2017 21:39

tulips: USA, UK, France, Germany, Austria, Poland, Russia, the Netherlands, even Australia. The right are on the march. They might not all be fascists but they are pretty far right.

TulipsInAJug · 01/02/2017 22:24

The desire for change comes from the Left as well as the Right. It's a reaction to the laissez faire economics that has characterised western democracies for the past three decades- and was trumpeted by the strongest supporters of Remain.

unlucky83 · 01/02/2017 22:38

This has reminded me about the mass sexual assaults of women on NYE in Cologne and other places.
The initial reaction was to try and cover it up - then trying to minimise it and then some victim blaming.... then to try not to talk about it.

The reason was because of the background of the perpetrators - obviously put a certain kind of person into a spin - the poor victims who they have to defend have suddenly become the attackers. How can they support Islam and Women's rights? (actually I would argue that was always the case for strict Muslims, as I would for orthodox Jews and Christians too- you just can't support both )
However as was said on the countless threads on here repeatedly - if the mainstream, especially the left leaning, media and politicians won't talk about something like that it - for whatever reason - that leaves the field open for the extreme right to exploit it.
I would suggest that is why the far right is gaining ground - because they do acknowledge problems with eg immigration (and then put their own despicable spin on it ) and don't stick their fingers in their ears and say 'not listening' because it doesn't suit their rose tinted version of the world and what is 'right'. They would be much better to face the truth and facts head on - openly discuss it and deal with it instead of trying to deny reality.
(A lot of what is happening with the left at the moment reminds me of Animal farm - but the rest of the animals are starting to see the pigs for what they really are...)

YourOtherLeft · 01/02/2017 23:04

Tulips

The Remainers I know are almost all what I would call social liberals - they are working-class or middle-class, are politically left-of-centre or centrists and oppose much of what we call neoliberalism. They, like myself, voted Remain to protect Britain not only from xenophobes and misogynists but also from the right-wing laisses-faire evangelicals who believe that the market should rule every aspect of our lives.

The truth is that the UK has been the strongest proponent of neoliberalism in Europe. The reason the EU will probably not get TTIP has more to do with the French drawing a line in the sand wrt the proposed liberalisation of the beef market as it does any other factor. Trump may kill TTIP, but it was pretty much already dead because Europe (as a whole) did not want it. But either way, neoliberalism is gone... good news!

But... but neoliberalism is only one expression of free-market evangelisms. We may have less neoliberalism as a result of Brexit, but we will have more privatisation, more liberalisation of the workforce and fewer State regulations. The EU, with its strong focus on equality, human rights, workers rights and consumer rights, is a defence against the free marketeers. Everyone was up in arms about the NHS being sold off to American corporations if TTIP came along, but can we honestly say that the NHS is not under greater threat now, post-Brexit result, than it has been at any other time in its existence?

If Brexit was about rejecting our current state of cripplingly unfair economic liberalism, the Tories would not be riding so high in the polls. The Tories brought us Austerity, they brought us privatisation, and they have consistently fought against Europe imposing rights upon the British people. I agree that many middle-class Remainers DID vote to protect neoliberalism. However, my counter-argument is that just as many middle-class Leavers voted against neoliberalism in support of British economic liberalism. Many Leave voters chose a different version of the same problem Brexit is allegedly a rejection of.

As for New Labour... yes, you are right about their embracing of neoliberalism. The only reason they stayed in power for so long was because they managed to win the right-of-centre voters over with their neoliberal economic position. The Third Way was an attempt to unify social liberalism with neoliberalism, but it failed because neoliberalism is fundamentally flawed as a hypothesis (and also because Blair started to backtrack on the "liberal" bit of social liberal). New Labour brought the country to the centre-ground by making social liberalism attractive to a right-of-centre England. To say New Labour missed their chance to fix the problem is easy, but had they attempted to do so before the Credit Crunch, they would have been kicked out of power.

Yes, the EU has also followed this Third Way to a significant degree, but that means the EU also worked hard to establish a major social liberal element to its political philosophy. What is happening now is that the social liberal baby is being thrown out with the neoliberal bathwater. Rather than fix social liberalism by scaling back on neoliberalism, which is what I expect the EU to do over the next few decades (providing the right-wingers are held at bay), Brexit has killed social liberalism in England.

In Scotland it is alive and well. I would go so far as to suggest that the real damage done by New Labour (to England) was in simultaneously alienating and liberating Scotland. This drove the SNP's success and freed England up from the significant left-of-centre Labour counterweight that Scotland traditionally provided to the middle-England right-wing sentiment.

But to answer the original question, the right-wingers in England have been unshackled from the moderating forces of Scottish centre-left voters and EU centre-left societal (if not economic) ideals. We are back to Thatcher's Britain. I would also suggest that a large percentage of Labour voters from the working class only ever voted Labour because it's what Unionised working-class people were supposed to do. Without the Unions to enforce a left-wing political ideology, lots of working-class English voters have reverted to their default political stance, which is right-wing. The Left is a minority position, the centre-ground has been largely marginalised post New Labour and post-Brexit and the right-wing are empowered. Except in Scotland.

A brief aside - Trump is no surprise whatsoever. The US, like England, is right-wing in its nature. The difference between Trump and what went before is that Trump has no manners, no slyness to him and no respect for the "proper" way of doing politics. He's not actually that much worse than George W Bush (who was awful), a fact which seems to have been forgotten in all the recent kerfuffle. The US lurch to the right has been a long time coming. Actually, there was Reagan too, who, with Thatcher, started the whole economic ultra-liberalism ball rolling. So, perhaps it would be more accurate to say that what we've seen in Anglo-Saxon politics is a brief interregnum of social liberalism (riding on the coat-tails of neoliberalism) in the generally right-wing, post-seventies political landscape.

SemiPermanent · 01/02/2017 23:11

.

20nil · 02/02/2017 08:05

Agree with your other though do think Trump is worse and more dangerous than what's come before, especially in terms of foreign policy.

scaryteacher · 02/02/2017 08:08

20nil The civil war would have happened in Yugoslavia even if it had been newly in the EU post the death of Tito and the wall coming down. How would the EU have stopped it? It is not 'Europe', by which I presume you mean the EU (different things), that has kept the peace in Europe, but NATO. The EU is essentially toothless when it comes to boots on the ground and conflict prevention, but NATO has the big beast that matters, which is the US.

Yugoslavia was iirc a construct of a country held together by Tito, and tensions that had been there eventually came to the fore resulting in the civil war in the 90s.

As for Dan Jarvis, intellectual heft doesn't really cut it for me with a political leader, but what they have done outside politics and their real world engagement. I think many politicians, like many academics, sit in their bubbles and ivory towers, and haven't done much else (see Corbyn), but Jarvis has had a career before politics, and will have a strategic plan and the leadership skills to back it up. For me leaders need to make things work on a practical level, as opposed to the intellectual, and they need to be able to carry through, rather than U turn at the first hint of criticism like Cameron.

It's like the EU, which is an intellectual vanity project of the first order....membership demonstrably doesn't work on a practical level for some of the member states, or at the very least, EZ membership doesn't, yet instead of changing things, the Eurocrats hold firm to their vision of the project, rather than realising the problems and trying to address them. A little more change and the UK might have stayed in.

Secretsandlies12 · 02/02/2017 09:02

@scary

I think Europe HAD the big beast that mattered. Let's see what happens in the next four years.

Perhaps the UK policy of systematically undermining EU efforts to develop their own security apparatus will prove to have been epically short sighted. Because when the Russians invade Europe the UK will not be able to shelter under the Trump umbrella.

WrongTrouser · 02/02/2017 09:28

I would also suggest that a large percentage of Labour voters from the working class only ever voted Labour because it's what Unionised working-class people were supposed to do. Without the Unions to enforce a left-wing political ideology, lots of working-class English voters have reverted to their default political stance, which is right-wing

I disagree with this. Politics isn't some fixed theoretical set of ideals, it is about responding to actual circumstances.

The left has failed to acknowledge and give credence to the real concerns of working class people, for example, on immigration. This is why some of the working class are turning away from Labour and towards the right.

Well-off middle class people are to some extent protected from government policies. Less well off working class people are not. They can't afford to vote on some sort of ideology based theory - they vote on self interest, for whoever they think will protect their standard of living and would daft not to do so. As various pp have said, if a left party could simultaneously acknowledge and address the actual concerns of the working class whilst offering socialist policies on the welfare state, NHS etc, people would vote for them.

The only hope for the left, and Labour, in my view, is for it to start addressing the real experiences and concerns of working class people, rather than feeling that their role is to re-educate the wc into the correct view. Otherwise I'm not sure what it's purpose is.

augustbody · 02/02/2017 09:43

Rememeber when that woman asked Gordon Brown a question about immigration and we all heard him call her a 'bigot'?

People have never been listened to about their immigration concerns. Then along comes the right wing who do appear to listen and then whip people up into a right old froth and there you have it.

I do agree that people who are racist need to own their behaviour, but at the same time there has been a lot of people sitting in ivory towers who look down their nose and tell anyone who utters the 'I' word that they are just a racist bigot.

And then along comes Fuckwit Farage with the his pint and his fag and his Nazi posters.

makeourfuture · 02/02/2017 09:49

The left has failed to acknowledge and give credence to the real concerns of working class people, for example, on immigration.

Their internal concerns may exist, but immigration is a complex issue. How much credence should we give to anti-vaxers?

WrongTrouser · 02/02/2017 10:04

make Vaccination is a health issue, with all the scientific evidence showing that vaccination is beneficial.

I completely agree with you that immigration is a complex issue. It affects different sections of the population differently, and, for sure, some of the detrimental affects could be offset by different government policy. I am suggesting that the left needs to listen to and acknowledge and respond to people's actual experiences and concerns. I don't see that that is comparable to giving credence to anti-vaxers.

SemiPermanent · 02/02/2017 10:05

Mephistopheles, just wanted to say I liked your post about the 'shame-bat' earlier - good analyses.

Unlucky83 - your post at 14:44 yesterday reflected my thoughts on it all.

The reaction to the referendum has, I think, revealed a really deep seam of disdain for working class people amongst some of the left/pseudo left

The only hope for the left, and Labour, in my view, is for it to start addressing the real experiences and concerns of working class people, rather than feeling that their role is to re-educate the wc into the correct view.
YY WrongTrouser

scaryteacher · 02/02/2017 10:09

Secrets If Russia invades Europe, then under Article V of the Washington Treaty, the whole reason for NATO and collective defence, the U.S. would have to act, as would the rest of NATO. If you check NATO nations and partners with the EU Member States you will see there is a direct correlation, so actually, the EU already has collective defence via member States being NATO nations as well.

There has been an EU military staff for years; dh was seconded to it, but it doesn't (and can't) match what NATO already offers, because the EU Member States don't want to pay for their own defence when the U.S. already pays huge amounts for them. I can see why Trump wants those who don't meet the 2% NATO minimum to do so, but the UK wants that too, and it has been pushed for by previous POTUSs as well, including Obama at the Wales summit.

Bolshybookworm · 02/02/2017 10:16

A lot of very old fashioned views on this thread RE class in the uk. I think the definitions are far more fluid than described here, especially since the massive increase in university students in the noughties. If your parents are working class but you went to uni and have a corporate job, what does that make you? If your parents were moneyed professionals but you're slaving away in a low paid public sector job, what are you? I'm "middle class" but I earn far less than my hairdresser friend who would traditionally be thought of as working class. I don't really believe there are well defined blocks of "working class" and "middle class" any more.

i do think we have massive problems in this country with whole towns and cities being left behind but I also think there's a blinkered view that we have to do everything possible to save them. If your town was built around mills powered by a local river, in the depths of the countryside, it's just not going to be viable in an age when we no longer use steam power. There needs to be a massive shift in thinking from assuming that a factory job will await you when you finish school to an appreciation that education is where it's at and that you need to exploit it to suit your needs. We live in a knowledge and service economy and people need to get to grips with that instead of trying to destroy it so we can go back to the industrial revolution. NOT blaming the communities concerned, but successive governments for failing to put the money and thought into education to achieve this. Labour tried but the current government are stripping funds from education at an alarming rate. It's a crime, tbh.

SemiPermanent · 02/02/2017 10:33

There needs to be a massive shift in thinking from assuming that a factory job will await you when you finish school to an appreciation that education is where it's at

I disagree to an extent.

Absolutely agree that the thinking/attitude needs to shift away from the situations you describe re expecting factory job/going back to industrial revolution etc.
However, the mantra of 'education's where it's at' is also flawed.

The masses of young people going to university didn't do anything other than create a great swathe of graduates who end up with masses of debt in jobs where they didn't actually need a degree.

The country will always need the biggest numbers of people working the 'bottom' jobs - these people are the engine of the country - these jobs don't need degrees.

My eldest son is 14 - my advice to him is go to university if:

  • you really want to learn the subject (for the interest & love of learning alone)
  • you need a degree to go into the field you want to work in

Don't go if the only reason is 'that's what I'm 'supposed' to do'.
You can always go and do a degree later in life if & when you want to.

NotDavidTennant · 02/02/2017 10:39

One thing I haven't seen acknowledged is that the nature of the political divide has shifted a lot in the last couple of decades.

The old left v right economic divide over socialism v capitalism died out after the end of the cold war and is no longer an active debate within mainstream politics. Instead the main political divide has become between liberalism/internationalism and traditionalism/communitarianism.

The liberal/international wing have dominated politics for the last couple of decades but a backlash has been forming for a while, and this is leading to the traditional/communitarian wing coming out of the margins and start to enter the mainstream.

The interesting things is that this divide no longer neatly splits along left v right lines, and the political left in particular are suffering from this at the moment. There are left wingers on both sides of this divide: some who are liberals and think the emphasis of the left should be on fighting for universal rights on a global scale and some who are traditionalists and think the emphasis should be on helping the specific marginalised communities (e.g. the working classes) that they see as being the historic focus of the left. This is leading to a crisis in left wing circles as to what the left should actually be about, and I believe is leading to a split of the left into two opposing camps.

So far the right has not been affected as much, but I suspect sooner or later it is going to have to face the same divide.

Bolshybookworm · 02/02/2017 10:44

I actually agree with you semi- when I talk about education I'm not talking about university. I mean school. Kids need to take more advantage of the education that's offered to them but there also needs to be a much expanded range of options for them. Gove has really set this process back, unfortunately. E.g. A close friend works at a school in a very deprived area. A lot of kids aren't interested in university but they do want to work in hospitality and catering. So the school (new academy) built its ethos around this- had a professional chef to run catering courses, made lots of link with local businesses to get them access to work experience. Then gove delegitimised all "soft" courses and the school suffered hugely in terms of results because of this. So they're having to ditch the catering/hospitality courses and instead push the kids harder in traditional subjects that they don't want to do. Such backward thinking.

I would also like to see an expansion in 1 and 2 year technical courses, which has been muted by May. Great idea but I have no faith in this government to put the money in that would be needed to do this properly.

Secretsandlies12 · 02/02/2017 10:56

@secrets

You are assuming that NATO in the future will continue as NATO in the past. Trump has said it is obsolete. The optimists believe that this will just mean that other NATo members will have to up their contributions. Realists are beginning to see that an organisation built on shared interests and values is extremely shaky once those shared interests and values no longer prevail. Just look at Trumps pronouncements on Russia and the EU. Putin seen as a better bet than Merkel.

I think you are right to say that Europeans have sheltered under the US umbrella for too long. The French, through their support for WEU, EU military structures have always pointed out that this is complacent and depends on the US and Europe continuing to share values and have consistently advocated independent EU structures at greater costs. The UK has consistently undermined these efforts on the basis that European and US interests are identical and that there is no point in duplicating existing structures. Those judgements no longer apply.

Just watch as Putin probes the Baltic states....

Secretsandlies12 · 02/02/2017 10:59

That was @scary

SemiPermanent · 02/02/2017 11:00

Agree completely Bolshy.

That's such a shame about your friend's school - it's all so shortsighted isn't it.

Education, prisons & NHS should not be political footballs imo - they should be cross-party, independently overseen & managed.

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