Terraced house next to an old lady who complaint about our piano playing

[Greenleave]

I have asked on the music thread although was also hoping for a wider mumsnet readers for a advice please. We had a complaint from our (lovely) old neighbor in the past when we played piano around 7.30pm since then we have never played the piano(with a sound) after 7pm(she is a nice old lady living on her own). We had another complaint today at 5.30pm that we are not considerate and "need to respect the others" and "the wall is really thin" and she cant stand the piano noise. I was told that our 9 yrs old has been playing 30mins or something in the afternoon. Is it too much? Does it mean we are not allowed to play at all. We are only home 3 afternoon a week, should I ask her if these 3 afternoons for 30mins is reasonable. We live in a terraced(although not too small) and the other neighbors have never complaint. We play some on Sundays only as we are packed with activities on Saturdays, so 30 mins 3 days a week and 1hour Sunday. What happens if she still doesnt want it(impression is she knows we have silent piano and she said we should always be on silent however we were advised by our teacher to listen to the real sound is better for her practice - the piano is an U3S-silent

That's loud not load

I don't think your neighbour is going to let this go, it is probably preoccupying her thoughts now, waiting for the piano to start up. She is only going to get worse if nothing is done.

Remember if your neighbour she starts complaining to authorities, you would have to disclose a neighbour dispute if you wanted to sell your house at any stage.

An older relative of mine has a hearing condition called 'recruitment' where she hears loud noises 8 times louder than other people, maybe she has something like that.

I was looking up sound insulation and the only thing that would work would be a fully sound proofed wall. Might be easier to move the piano.

I agree with posters who've said to move the piano away from the chimney and to insulate it too as a compromise. But do not agree that DC should always play with the headphones on. Grade 5 level is pretty cool. It's not plinky plonky type of playing, and 30 minutes isn't that long as a practise session.

You dont say if it is an electronic. Piano..or the more traditional sort. You could plug in headphones for dd to hear her own playing and zero noise for everyone else ? Well worth the investment IMHO.

I think that if some one was playing the piano next door..

I'd like to be asked round to listen to it:-)

I wish people would read the thread, Dansmum, that's for you.

I wouldn't feel guilty about it OP, it's a few hours a week and not too early/late.

The real problem is not now but for the future. Grade 5 at 9 means she is pretty good and if she goes on playing she is going to have to start ramping up the practice and this is then going to be an ever escalating problem. My (somewhat older) dd is working for a diploma and so practices a minimum of an hour a day. I'm "lucky" as my dc are younger than my neighbours' whose son used to practice his trumpet at 7am every morning before school so they can hardly complain that there is constant music practice from 6-10 some nights here.

Get dd to bake her a cake or some biscuits and then take it round and explain that she is very talented and so the problem of practice isn't going to go away and that you would like to try and reach an agreement on practice. Explain why she sometimes needs to listen to herself play out loud and see if you can reach a compromise eg if she goes to church on Sunday your daughter could practice then and could do half of her weekday practices without headphones so only 15 minutes at a time. Also get your dd to think about which bits of her practice won't be fun to listen to - ie all her scales and five finger exercises - head phones on; times when she is practicing tricky passages over and over - head phones on; running through a piece from end to end - headphones off.

Get dd to bake her a cake or some biscuits and then take it round and explain that she is very talented and so the problem of practice isn't going to go away

If a kid said this to me I would think they were a special little snowflake and somehow be more annoyed. It sounds entitled.

I hope she will progress, she is now in year 4 and loves it, however if she needs to practise more then it must be on silent mode. I will put the sound proof this Saturday and come and check with our neighbor if it helps and ask her if an agreed 30mins 3 days a week from 4.30-5.30pm and 1hour on Sunday from 11.00-12.00 is ok for her. Its very important to my daughter and I am sorry we live in the house next to her however moving unfortunately isnt an option for us as even in the kitchen, there is only a place where the fridge is sitting now however if we put the piano there(which yamaha advised me yesterday that we shouldnt) then there isnt a place for the fridge(I know some of you here will jump and say"well then put your fridge in the middle of your living room if you want to practise"). Once she is bigger(and we still live in this house then she could spend time at schools or somewhere else on her own to practise, right now, it isnt an option as both myself and my husband work in the city and do long hours, pick and drop her during the week is impossible.

Many of you have been so kind and offered great ideas/suggestions, I am very grateful. She is although a very private lady where she is never happy if we knock her door(for any reason including us bringing her some cookings she likes-she loves the foods, biscuits, cheese boards we give her however just generally doesnt like answering the door). So I am prepared to knock the door with my most sincere heart (and face) to ask her. After that then I am afraid I personally think I have been back off and reasonable(many of you wont agree) and if she chooses to restrain the relationship then there isnt much else I could do.

One small factor which makes me uncomfortable on the afternoon she told my daughter off, I am not English and I found it quite offended as my daughter thought she wasnt considerate, being unthoughtful and scared when being told of an (elderly) adult. I wish she could have knock the door when I am home and tell me instead. However I wont mention it in the later conversation with her. Its just different culture I think, we usually tell off the parents of young child rather the child themself.

I think your neighbour is being unreasonable.

30 mins three times a week and 1 hour on a Sunday? And that's not playing late at night or early in the morning? That's hardly intrusive. I think she's being a bit OTT with the complaining.

I would try to soundproof behind the piano as others have suggested. But OP, don't go ripping your built in bookshelves out to accommodate the piano somewhere else! I wouldn't

Fwiw you sound like a lovely, considerate neighbour.

Also get your dd to think about which bits of her practice won't be fun to listen to - ie all her scales and five finger exercises - head phones on; times when she is practicing tricky passages over and over - head phones on; running through a piece from end to end - headphones off. I think this is good advice. We have had a similar problem with our upstairs neighbours after we moved in with a real piano. Various complaints (in spite of restricting hours of practice) in the end I caved in and bought an electric keyboard so my dcs can practice with headphones (or at low volumes) - especially the scales and tricky bits. They still play the piano and have their lesson on on the piano though never after 8pm, but the majority of their playing is on silent! I still think my neighbour was being unreasonable - especially as we had to listen to his daughter shagging her boyfriend at full volume when they were out and pointed this out to him - but in the end it's not always about who is right and who is wrong, you just do what you can to get along. He hasn't complained since, but I don't know if that is as a result of my outburst or as a result of the new keyboard.

We did grade 5 last term and are not on any exam this term and haven't got scales practice done, the pieces we are practising are two (lovely/soft/gentle) Bach and Beethoven sonatinas, I dont think it was because of what we play. Its more the noise from music we made after stopping for long time(she made the first complain a year ago in one evening around 7pm when my daughter was playing music with sound-with my previous digital piano, only 1 person can hear it once its silent so we only played with sound when I had to check on her progress-which was rare as I am usually get back home late. After that I bought this new piano with silent system where 2 people can hear it at the same time and we have always been on silence. Then we were told by our teacher that we should hear the "real" sound as she is not at a more sophisticated phase where the pedals are used more, different weight to keys and prolonged holding the keys etc could make a huge difference to the sound. Remember her remark first time we started with only 1 hr on Sunday when I am home and during day light. The most important thing to me that the last 3 weeks she has been sitting down and doing it without me and loving it(on this 3 afternoons when she is home after school and before her toddler sister gets back from nursery). Its only 30mins for max 3 days a week since the last 3 weeks and it transformed her play. Her happy playing for this 3 afternoons (30 mins maximum) is more important to me than the relationship I have been trying to build with my old lady neighbor.

Green It sounds like a certainty that the noise your neighbour is hearing is likely far 'louder' than you hear in your own house as clearly the chimney chamber is - in effect - acting as an echo chamber, or as a loudspeaker to put it another way. Agree with other PPs that, once affected by it, she will likely be on edge both anticipating and dreading the next bout of noise - it's a horrible way to live.

It is also likely that that sound in her house could be above 'permitted' noise levels, I have had experience of this via Environmental Health Noise Pollution Officer actually measuring it with a decibel measuring device and again, PP is correct that if your neighbour feels you are dismissing her - valid, on the face of it - concerns then she could go to the Council for help and that will then forever be something you will have to disclose as a dispute and could affect future sale of your house. I'd avoid that risk like the plague TBH.

On a separate note, when you complain that she should have waited until you where home I'm guessing she simply came round when the noise was going on to ask it to stop. I'm also curious as to how your 9 year old daughter was in a position to be 'told off' by her - whose care was your daughter in?

Or was she alone if your nanny had gone to pick toddler up? As well as managing the noise issue, if I were you I'd be taking a good look at myself to see what went wrong in my childcare plans that my 9 year old was ever in a position to be 'told off' by someone (it wasn't your DD who opened the door was it?)

I live in a terraced house and it depends where noise is as to how it travels. YY to PPs saying that the piano being in front of the fireplace being one of the worst place in the house for noise. We had to move our TV because of our delightful neighbours, and found just moving it in the same room changed the noise level from intolerable to no problem.

I did sayI will put noise proof and ask to hear it from her room and yes if its truly unbearable after the sound proof then I will ask her what would be the most suitable time for these 3 days if she can play 30mins(it should only impact 1 room as she has 2 living rooms with solid wall and doors between them, I am hoping she could use the other living room for this 30mins instead-and I will ask with a desperate and sincere face because I am). If she still dont agree then I agree if we could bring it forward to the (whoever it is) authority.

Thats exactly my question, I dont normally see an adult tell off a child(to me 9 yrs old is young) except its family. I will review my childcare plan but I dont find there is anything to do with that afternoon event. (My daughter opened the door when she heard the knock and saw her and she spoke to my daughter (our nanny overheard the conversation and came to the door and both of the girls apologised). I was retold the story by our nanny. I did say that when I heard the story I took my neighbor's side first and ask her not to play with sound until I understand it better and tried to calm her down that she was upset and angry might be because of the noise on a rainy day and she is old and lonely (with hope that my daughter will still like her and wasnt scared and didnt take her remark personally).

I do understand(more than very well as said repeatedly here by posters and admitted by myself) that the chimneys have made it worse.

Fortunately we dont have time for tivi and the children are not at home during the day so no tivi for us, during the day up until 4.30pm and from 8.30pm onward there isnt ever a noise.

Go to your neighbour while your daughter is playing piano and check how loud sound is. If it is really loud you have to move piano. If it is moderate you can put sound prove like egg boxex. It is cheap and effective method to do it

Greenleave I'd be very surprised if sound proof whatever this is quite will make that much difference. Once upon a time i was involved in recording studio design and its not easy doing sound or acoustic isolation such as Air gaps and massive construction are needed a tad awkward in most houses!.

Perhaps best to see if there anywhere the instrument can go that's away from the neighbors walls and the like also where it stands can make a lot of difference, well maybe enough to shut her next door up sufficiently;!

Your neighbour is being totally unreasonable. Maybe it is quite loud. Half an hour at 5.30 should not generate a complaint. If you accommodate her this time you may never hear the end of it. I wouldn't entertain her complaining or rude comments any further.

Just a side note that your dd is doing extremely well to have got to grade 5 at the age of 9!!

Thank you all!

We had foam put on the back of the piano and also between the piano and the wall this morning. I came and knocked the door and it was raining and I asked if I could come in(my daughter wasnt home by the time, the intention was only to chat to her and was hoping if I could see that room). However she said she isnt prepared to have any one to come in so we chatted at the front door(I have never been invited to her house for the last more than 6 yrs we live here, she has been invited to see ours few time, once to see all the rooms upstair, couple of other times for tea etc. She is a very private lady). She said when she came back on that day and thought my daughter would have thought our neighbor complaint means she should never play and she didnt mean that. She said she could hear that the pieces were nicely played and my daughter must be good and she needs to practise. She said she doesnt mind if it was a set of time on what day. I also explained to her what we did in the morning, and tell her the time that she could practise. I was trying my best to explain to her that she is only year 4, still very young and her playing is only at the starting point where hearing the real sound alittle after each time she practises is important. Hopefully we could get back to normal after this chat. She did mention that this weather is really bothering her and she did have a day. I think we were just unlucky when my daughter was playing while she was depressed and needed peace. Lesson learnt though, told my daughter tonight that she should never ever opened the door to anyone including people she knows without us standing next to her. I do shouting, I do nagging however I have never needed to tell my daughter such a "hard" word. Well, life is tough, she will need to face a real world one day I reckon.

I might not have explained the key point above that she said she understood that my daughter needs practice and agreed with the time I asked. So we are ok (for now). Well, I did have couple of appointments for house viewing this morning too, came back to the reality that we couldnt afford to move to any where bigger in the area yet. The semi-detached one which isnt (much) biggers than ours and still needs alot of work with stamp duty itself is already too much. My neighbor unfortunately will have to stick with us for some more time.

I am not English

I bet my mortgage that this is part of the problem the old lady next door has with the OP.