to wonder what planet the 'ban Trump from the UK' people are living on

[roseshippy]

Yes I understand that he's a sexist, racist, whatever-else-ist.

But he evidently thinks fondly of the UK, we are currently in the process of saying 'fuck off' to mainland Europe, so we will be a small, friendless island in the North Sea in need of some help.

AIBU to think that we need to suffer a bit of schmoozing from dodgy foreign leaders as part of post-Brexit Britain? (Actually didn't we already schmooze dodgy foreign leaders long before Brexit?)

And in reality Trump is rather less dodgy than the average world leader, if we exclude the EU, as we have done

What are the other choices?

"
A) either really comfortable with his installing white supremacist in senior positions (Bannen) and trampling on the constitution and trying to set the press up as the enemy or

B) not really paying attention.

Honestly, racist or thick. Those are the options as far as I can see."

He's called 'Bannon'. Who's thick here exactly?

I wouldn't make either Bannon or Trump a cup of tea.

Whatever people think of Donald trump, he was apparently democratically installed as the political leader of a supposedly allied country, whereas our own political leader was unelected as such. There are plenty more things happening in this world deserving of criticism, but seemingly not as worthy.

I wouldn't make Theresa May a cup of tea either.

Whatever people think of Donald trump, he was apparently democratically installed as the political leader of a supposedly allied country

He probably wasn't though. He didn't get the majority of the vote, and he told us all it was totally rigged, which looks now to be true.

He's called 'Bannon'. Who's thick here exactly?

Nope, still you, not the person with the typo.

If your a law abiding resident then surly you can wait 90 days while the new administrations set up whatever procedures they feel they need to?
I agree for a small number of people it will be an inconvenience but national security comes first.

You do realize there are US residents (holders of green cards and work visas) caught up in this too? Would you like to be told 'sorry you can't return to your house or job for 90 days, you'll have to fork out for a hotel or live on the streets if your money runs out until we let you get on a plane'.

You do realize there are US residents (holders of green cards and work visas) caught up in this too?

I think several PP have tried to point this out to no avail.

He didn't get the majority of the vote, and he told us all it was totally rigged, which looks now to be true. The US doesn't not elect presidents on the popular vote, that is how their democracy works. In the UK a popular vote went for Brexit and people still think its undemocratic to leave the EU.

If Trump goes down the route some people are implying we will have another Putin on our hands. But I have friends and family in the states and I just do not think its credible that the people of that country will allow that to happen. Remember their constitution allows them arms to combat the tyranny of the state.

You do realize there are US residents (holders of green cards and work visas) caught up in this too? Yes and unfortunately that is what the citizens voted for. I am not sure ostracizing the country will make things better. Sounds like TM has managed to get Trump to keep the Iran deal on nuclear weapons, which is progress worth the sacrifice.

Trump's going to do terrible things and the countries and governments who suck up to him will not be looked on favourably in the future.

The US doesn't not elect presidents on the popular vote, that is how their democracy works

Yes we know that. But it seems there is a good chance he didn't legitimately win AT ALL. Didn't he keep telling us how it was all rigged, up until he realised it had been rigged for him? Powerful Russian friends.....and a 19.5% share of Russias stat oil company changing hands....

Trump is cutting funding for abortion groups, which every republican president does like clockwork.

Not to this extent. And the fact that other people have done it doesn't change the fact that this sort of action ultimately leads to deaths.

He sacked the Secretary General, just like Corbyn sacked 2 shadow ministers for not backing Brexit.

You do see the difference between a President in power sacking someone with experience in favour of one of his political cronies, and the leader of the opposition following established procedures in relation to people who won't follow the party line?

He tells the media to shut it, which sounds like a lot of UK politicians referring to the BBC.

But UK politicians don't, for instance, do anything equivalent to trying to stop National Parks employees from telling people telling the truth about climate change. And whinging about the BBC really isn't comparable to what Trump is doing.

He is against climate change, like he is the only politician to say that.

But other politicians don't try to stop people from producing evidence that it exists.

He doesn't like Muslims, France banned the Burka.

Banning people doesn't equate to banning the Burka.

But, of course, even if all your points were fully justified and what other countries do is just as bad as what Trump is doing - so what? How would that meant that what he is doing is fine?

Whats the big deal if visitors cant pop in and out of the US for 90 days. Its not a human right to visit America and I am sure lawyers will make millions out of it if anything illegal has been done.

The big deal is that he isn't just stopping visitors from popping in and out, he's stopping people from doing their jobs, he's stopping people with Green cards, he's stopping people from returning to their homes. The very fact that you seek to minimise the effects of what he is doing in this way demonstrates that you know perfectly well that it isn't excusable.

As for "if anything illegal has been done" - both the courts and Trump's own Attorney General have said unequivocally that something illegal has been done. So should the illegality stop, or should it be left for lawyers to make millions out of Trump's illegal actions?

The very fact that you seek to minimise the effects of what he is doing in this way demonstrates that you know perfectly well that it isn't excusable.

This.

Oh I see Jamie, it was you who didn't understand the petition.

You thought it said we must now ostracise America. No, why don't you read it?

So to summarise FreshStartIn2017
*
Makingmerry* I can't see any summary of what I've said. Perhaps you could explain to me by quoting my actual words?!

Trump is cutting funding for abortion groups, which every republican president does like clockwork

He has cut it all. He's gone further.

He sacked the Secretary General, just like Corbyn sacked 2 shadow ministers for not backing Brexit

You are aware that Corbyn isn't the Prime Minister? Also in this country, independent advisors are appointed by the queen so not so easily sacked if they go against government. So that is not at all equivalent I'm afraid. Try again.

He tells the media to shut it, which sounds like a lot of UK politicians referring to the BBC
That did cross my mind. However I can't actually find any instance of out and out aggression towards the BBC or other media outlets from our government. None. They complain about bias which is slightly different.

He is against climate change, like he is the only politician to say that

Is that the best you can do? The leader of one of the most influential countries on the planet who can undo critical agreements which would help slow down the damage to our planet. While some politicians may say they don't believe in climate change, he can and will actually do something to reverse progress. Are you aware of the issues we have with air pollution for example?

I think climate change needs a new name because people deliberately misunderstand it. We are destroying the planet.

He doesn't like Muslims, France banned the Burka

How is that on a par with preventing people from travelling to a country where they actually had family, jobs and even a valid passport to get there?

Seriously, you are minimising the damage that Trump is and will continue to do. Have you ever seen protests like this so early on in a presidency? Do you think people are doing it for fun?

I suggest you educate yourself. Read widely. Read daily. Speak to people and most importantly listen to people. I've been listening and reading stories about why people voted Trump, just to understand why. Same for Brexit. It gives me an idea of why they might have done it. And now they reap what they sow.

"The big deal is that he isn't just stopping visitors from popping in and out, he's stopping people from doing their jobs, he's stopping people with Green cards"

HE IS NOT STOPPING PEOPLE WITH GREEN CARDS.

HE IS NOT STOPPING PEOPLE WITH GREEN CARDS

He was until people started protesting.

Trump reversed the green cards bit after people got pissed off

Not because he's reasonable.

I agree that, in the mid to long-term, we will probably ostracise ourselves even further from America if we make a point of welcoming Trump.

This isn't business as usual, with a small, angry minority complaining that the bloke they dislike got elected. He lost the popular vote, has the lowest approval ratings in history, members of his own party have serious reservations about him, and he's already attempting to rush through unconstitutional and possibly illegal orders. This is going to cause huge upheaval in the American political system.

In terms of pure self-interest, Trump is not a figure with whom we want to rush into alliance.

As it currently stands, this is a person who has a very large section of the population actively opposing him, and who shows no interest in pacifying or listening to them. Millions of people don't just disagree with his policies: they see them as fundamentally un-American. In the current situation, an alliance with Trump is not an alliance with America: it's an alliance with half of America - and it's the half of America who is firmly isolationist.

On a policy level, a large part of Trump's appeal to supporters is as someone who doesn't give a shit about international alliances and commitments, and who will unashamedly hammer other countries into unfavourable trade deals because fuck the world, America first. Whatever trite personal fondness he professes for the UK, look at how he's actually behaved in Scotland: the absolutely ruthless, bullying way he's tried to push his business interests into place.

We look desperate and unprincipled to be hurrying over there, holding hands and throwing state visits, while other countries' leaders are speaking against his actions and keeping a watchful distance. It's painful to watch people like Boris Johnson trying to simultanously criticise Trump whilst so trying to stay in his favour: all the 'yes, this is actually sort of not really the kind of thing we personally like, but...' isn't diplomatic. It's just pathetically obvious. Absolutely nobody is blind to the fact that we were really counting on a good relationship and trade deal with the US, post-Brexit. In the most superficial terms, this is terrible PR.

It's also very scary to see phrases like this beginning to circulate. Seen on this thread and others:

'If you're a law abiding resident, then surely you can...'
'I know it's a bit Orwellian, but sometimes it's necessary to...'
'He is a bit of a monster, but...'

I know there aren't many people on MN who actively support Trump (I think there's one lone poster who's said he's a masterful statesman who will fix the world), there are an increasing number of apologists. I know it's a cliche, but some of the excuses/justifications are straight out of dystopian fiction.

Trump reversed the green cards bit after people got pissed off hmm
Not because he's reasonable.

Well now that he's conveniently reversed the green card thing, the apologists can claim it shows how marvellous he is . Whilst carefully not mentioning that the decision to include green card holders came from the WH in the first place and that people have already been pressured to sign away their green cards.

Well now that he's conveniently reversed the green card thing, the apologists can claim it shows how marvellous he is

Exactly.

It's scary

So one day people from certain countries with green cards are potentially dangerous terrorists who must be prevented from entering the country for the safety of the US, and the next day they aren't because Trump realises he's caused a shitstorm? He's not making any attempt to be logical or consistent. We saw this all too often during the campaign, but it's frightening when it moves on from mere words to actions that massively affect the lives of real people.