to wonder what planet the 'ban Trump from the UK' people are living on

[roseshippy]

Yes I understand that he's a sexist, racist, whatever-else-ist.

But he evidently thinks fondly of the UK, we are currently in the process of saying 'fuck off' to mainland Europe, so we will be a small, friendless island in the North Sea in need of some help.

AIBU to think that we need to suffer a bit of schmoozing from dodgy foreign leaders as part of post-Brexit Britain? (Actually didn't we already schmooze dodgy foreign leaders long before Brexit?)

And in reality Trump is rather less dodgy than the average world leader, if we exclude the EU, as we have done

What are the other choices?

Why should law-abiding residents and visitors be caught up

If your a law abiding resident then surly you can wait 90 days while the new administrations set up whatever procedures they feel they need to?
I agree for a small number of people it will be an inconvenience but national security comes first.

Whats the big deal if visitors cant pop in and out of the US for 90 days. Its not a human right to visit America and I am sure lawyers will make millions out of it if anything illegal has been done.

I agree its been badly implemented but probably not something you can give advance warning of.

From the UNHCR statement on Trump's ban yesterday:

This week alone, over 800 refugees were set to make America their new home, but instead find themselves barred from travelling to the U.S. UNHCR estimates that 20,000 refugees in precarious circumstances might have been resettled to the United States during the 120 days covered by the suspension announced Friday, based on average monthly figures for the last 15 years. Refugees are anxious, confused and heartbroken at this suspension in what is already a lengthy process.

Refugees share the very same concerns about security and safety that Americans have. They themselves are fleeing war, persecution, oppression and terrorism. The individuals and families UNHCR refers to governments for resettlement are the most vulnerable – such as people needing urgent medical assistance, survivors of torture, and women and girls at risk. The new homes provided by resettlement countries are life-saving for people who have no other options.

Is it really that hard to understand why some people might have a problem with this? Really?

Is it really that hard to understand why some people might have a problem with this? I agree its a shitty world and we are not all born equal but we are where we are and sovereign nations do not have to take in refugees if they so choose. We can blame Trump or the we can blame the people that voted for him. The US is not the only country that doesn't take in refugees.

magpie I can see why you feel pissed off but it was your Dads choice not to become a citizen of the UK whilst living here for 50 years. I have family in the US but I cant afford to fly there every year to see them, does that mean my life is being F**ked up? Should I have a right to see them?

Perhaps you could be specific as to what exactly he did that you think people should know about it.

You say that like it's not exactly what I've done in the last couple of pages of this thread.

Several people thought the travel ban was an issue of minor logistic inconvience (people can just travel elsewhere instead), or rightfully discriminated against people without citizenship (because if they really cared about America, they'd have become citizens).

I pointed out that the ban affected many American permanent residents, plus hundreds of students and professionals who'd done nothing but adhere to the terms of their visas; that it would affect universities and corporations as well as penalise completely innocent individuals.

I explained (as did others) that citizenship isn't actually something you can choose. You're born with it, or have to work towards it, fulfilling many terms and conditions. In America, you have to live in the US as a legal permanent resident for at least five years before you can apply for citizenship; therefore, a ban which affects permanent residents is punishing thousands of people who are doing everything they're supposed to in terms of moving towards citizenship.

And the immigration ban is just one of the orders Trump has signed this week.

What do you think he's done? What do you think about the abortion-related executive order? The gag ruling on various government agencies (many environmental)? Do you think Bannon should have been put on the National Security Council? I could ask a million questions, but I have the feeling I'm wasting my time; that you're not even interested in debating this.

You are implying that people don't know what he has actually done and if only they did, they would put up 'assassinate Trump' threads

Where on earth are you getting this from? I said that people are demonstrating confusion (much of it understandable) about his multiple orders and their direct consequences. Your opening post is the kind of misinterpretation I'm talking about: implying that the objection to Trump is this vague dislike of his dodginess, and that he's a sexist, racist, whatever-else-ist, with absolutely no reference to his recent actions, which have extremely serious consequences and show a worrying pattern of behaviour. It's not just about his abrasive personality and nasty statements any more.

If your a law abiding resident then surly you can wait 90 days while the new administrations set up whatever procedures they feel they need to?

An interesting cross-post with maggie's story about what this is doing to her family. Although I guess you could revert to the "it's their own fault for not foreseeing..." argument.

And it is all so trivially simple, I suppose people like this can just hang on for 90 days

Nazanin Zinouri, a recent graduate of Clemson University's PhD programme in industrial engineering, was made to disembark a US-bound plane in Dubai, UAE. Zinouri, who graduated from Clemson in August, had travelled to Iran about a week earlier to visit family. "No one warned me when I was leaving, no one cared what will happen to my dog or my job or my life there. No one told me what I should do with my car that is still parked at the airport parking. Or what to do with my house and all my belongings," Zinouri wrote in a widely shared Facebook post. "They didn't say it with words but with their actions, that my life doesn't matter. Everything I worked for all these years doesn't matter."

I too was once a mere legal, permanent resident in another country. My country of birth, in point of fact, happens to be a Muslim majority one. In my host country where I was building my life and called home, I had a job (which required a certain amount of travelling), a partner, a cat, a mortgage on a flat. I can very much empathise with how it would feel, if while I had travelled away for work or to visit my parents, the rules were abruptly changed and I was detained for up to 90 days or thrown back onto a plane. What would happen to my job, my partner, our ability to pay the mortgage and bills?

But nah. You're right. Who gives a crap if foreign-born people lose jobs and homes?

"A lot of posters seem to be signing the petition for what he might do in the future rather than what he is doing"

no. That's a crock of shit.

And if anyone genuinely wide eyed has no idea what Trump has done to upset people then you are

A) either really comfortable with his installing white supremacist in senior positions (Bannen) and trampling on the constitution and trying to set the press up as the enemy or

B) not really paying attention.

Honestly, racist or thick. Those are the options as far as I can see.

You're not allowed to call people racist or thick. It hurts the feelings of thick racists.

And the '90 days' thing is just to get us used to this gently, like the frog in the pan of slowly boiling water. I'll bet my bottom dollar that in 90 days, there will still be restrictions on at least some of the 7 countries and they may even add more to the list

Read this www.niacouncil.org/trumps-executive-order-likely-permanent-iranians/ if you don't believe me.

53rd&bird; And is it really too difficult to understand that any one of these refugees could be entering the country under the guise of a refugee when in fact they could be a terrorist? I know some people are of the mind to let everyone in with little vetting, but if I was an American I would rather my government take every necessary precaution to avoid my family and I being blown up and ensuring these people do not present a threat to my country, than merrily wave everyone through passport control to avoid upsetting these poor sensitive refugees. As you yourself have pointed out, these people have been through oppression, torture and war, so you really think they are going to be 'anxious and confused' about a delay of 90 days to allow them entry?

But nah. You're right. Who gives a crap if foreign-born people lose jobs and homes?

It's chillingly reminiscent of the WW2 Japanese-American internment, in the sense of being a sudden restrictive move against thousands of people who've done nothing wrong, with a stunningly callous disregard for the disruption to their lives. No one cared what will happen to my dog or my job or my life there. No one told me what I should do with my car that is still parked at the airport parking. Or what to do with my house and all my belongings - this could've come straight out of 1941 testimony in 'Only What We Could Carry'.

How many terrorists from the 7 countries have committed acts of terror in America, livelove?

Do you know the number?

Because I do. It's zero

Omg this thread is depressing.

And the '90 days' thing is just to get us used to this gently, like the frog in the pan of slowly boiling water. I'll bet my bottom dollar that in 90 days, there will still be restrictions on at least some of the 7 countries and they may even add more to the list

The EO is for a minimum of 90 days so can easily be extended.

Anyway, the issue is now being debated in parliament on 20 February which was the point of the petition. So whatever else happens, it will be recorded in history that 1.5m of the British public didn't feel he was worthy of a state visit.

And is it really too difficult to understand that any one of these refugees could be entering the country under the guise of a refugee when in fact they could be a terrorist?

Well, yes, because they go through very exhaustive security vetting already. Here is the process: obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2015/11/20/infographic-screening-process-refugee-entry-united-states

As you yourself have pointed out, these people have been through oppression, torture and war, so you really think they are going to be 'anxious and confused' about a delay of 90 days to allow them entry?

Where do you think they are living now - five-star Hiltons? Here is more information on what these people are living through at the moment, and why resettlement is so urgently needed: www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/trumps-refugee-ban-is-a-matter-of-life-and-death-for-some-like-a-1-year-old-with-cancer/2017/01/30/4c8e4aae-e711-11e6-903d-9b11ed7d8d2a_story.html?utm_term=.c9ab04a29c30

If the protests on Monday, which were organised in less than 48 hours are anything to go by, the protests when the orange one comes here will be yuuuuge.

That'll dent his insecure little megalomaniac ego for usre

God, the fucking repetition. Excuse the caps locks, but

YOU CANNOT JUST DECLARE YOURSELF A REFUGEE AND WANDER INTO AMERICA.

AS A FOREIGN NATIONAL, YOU WILL NOT EVEN BE PERMITTED TO BOARD A PLANE INTO AMERICA IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A VISA OR VISA WAIVER.

In 2015, the average vetting time for Syrian refugees was 18-24 months, and involved multiple governmental agencies: the State Department, the FBI's Terrorist Screening Center, the Department of Defense and the Department of Homeland Security.

Yanbu. When world war 3 breaks out the UK will need Trump.

I remember a comment I saw a few years ago.

1984 was a warning, not a blueprint!

Tad worrying if the Attorney General is sacked for doing her job.

Even POTUS is not above American law or is he?

Maggie; who said they had? I said that investigations into the attacks in Europe had linked people from these seven countries to the atrocities. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the same couldn't happen in America. And as I said, Trump is more than likely aware of potential threats from intelligence provided to him. It makes sense that if terrorist groups are active in these countries and have attacked Europe that the chances are America are also on their list of targets.

Ooooooooh, I get it... yes this is based on intelligence only Trump has, so how on earth can we question his actions?

Does that apply to everything he has done or just this one thing?

Intelligence from Trump's intelligence agencies, which he respects so highly and is not at all at war with. Oh wait.

Again: the point is that refugees already are vetted, very thoroughly and at great length. Far, far more than you or I would be if we wanted to set foot in the US. So no, 'any one of these refugees' could not in fact be a terrorist claiming refugee status to sneak through, and this is not about 'letting everyone in with little vetting'.

Yes its shit America wont take in refugees for a while. But why does a democratic country have to? it has chosen this. Trump is the symptom not the cause.

But why does a democratic country have to?

a) because they have signed a treaty saying they will
b) because it is morally abhorrent not to.

Yes its shit America wont take in refugees for a while

There is a lot more to it than that/ You get its not just refugees, right?

But why does a democratic country have to? it has chosen this

Because they are signatories to the Geneva Convention and have to by international law?

When world war 3 breaks out the UK will need Trump

If it breaks out it will be caused by Trump, and the UK will be pretending they were never friends with him..,