to wonder what planet the 'ban Trump from the UK' people are living on

[roseshippy]

Yes I understand that he's a sexist, racist, whatever-else-ist.

But he evidently thinks fondly of the UK, we are currently in the process of saying 'fuck off' to mainland Europe, so we will be a small, friendless island in the North Sea in need of some help.

AIBU to think that we need to suffer a bit of schmoozing from dodgy foreign leaders as part of post-Brexit Britain? (Actually didn't we already schmooze dodgy foreign leaders long before Brexit?)

And in reality Trump is rather less dodgy than the average world leader, if we exclude the EU, as we have done

What are the other choices?

Megatherium; well what is the point of it then? I thought the whole point of putting your signature to something like this meant that at least it might result in affecting some sort of change or review. All it leads to is a 'debate' in parliament, but the outcome will be the same.

Not just about dual nationals

But let's talk about them instead of about legal and permanent residents who have not even reached that stage yet, so we can focus our blame on naughty people not choosing to be American who therefore deserve whatever is coming to them.

The petition that will be debated isn't about banning him entry to the UK, it's to prevent him meeting the royal family and having any visit here for business as a full state visit.

I've signed it in the knowledge that we cannot stop him from coming here, only that we don't want all the pomp and ceremony that goes with a state visit, and yes, because it will embarrass the Queen.

The point of the petition is pretty self-evident, Livelove: it's to force Parliament to debate it and to make clear the weight of feeling against Trump and, in particular, the prospect of a state visit.. Ever heard of being prepared to stand up and be counted? If we all sat around doing nothing because it's all pointless, then Trump would be claiming that the Brits were all desperate for him to come.

Jamie, one of Trump's biggest selling points was that he'd boost the economy and be good for business. Mass domestic and international protests are the opposite of this. Apart from the disruptive effect, many large corporations have spoken out against the immigration policy: Starbucks, Google, Apple, Howard Schultz, General Electric and Nike.

Trump may placate some of his most extremist supporters with hardline actions, but he risks alienating a much larger group who only tolerated his hate-speech because they thought he'd give the economy a boost.

Going back to page 7, thank seminormal, yes I am aware it needs 100,000 to be debated. That was not the point I was making, and it was unnecessary to try so hard to be rude and patronising. The point I was making was that Trump himself will have been made aware of these numbers. I like many others signed not because I thought I would actually stop a state visit, but to be one of the people sending a message to him.

The petition does not force a debate in parliament, it just means it will be considered for a debate. Just like Brexit was only advisory.

That;s just the first step though. Next.... Thats just guilty until proven innocent. A lot of posters seem to be signing the petition for what he might do in the future rather than what he is doing. Thought crimes?

jamiexeed74 Oh yes, everyone knows that the best protest and response to proto fascists is apathy. Great way to get things done. The Trump administration have an agenda which is idependent of global and home reaction.

thought crimes
You know the term irony?
In Trump's US all you have to be is Muslim to be a potential terrorist.
We are not objecting to what he might do, We are objecting to what he has done and said.

Oh, have we finished reproaching the "self-inflicted temporarily inconvenienced" for not choosing the correct citizenship, and ignoring others, living legally, who hadn't yet reached the stage of being able to make the choice?

A lot of posters seem to be signing the petition for what he might do in the future rather than what he is doing

He's already introduced a ridiculous "ban", tried to blame it on Obama, sacked the Secretary General for doing her job, tells the media to shut it, cut funding for abortion groups, approved the construction of oil pipelines despite opposition. Oh and let's not forget him basically gagging the national parks because of climate change.

If you step back, he's doing a lot of things in one go making it difficult to hold him to account.

'Thought crime'? Seriously? The man is turning away hundreds of refugees, people who were already vetted and cleared to settle in the US, and you don't think anyone might have a problem with that in and of itself?

Yeah, I signed the petition because I thought Trump might be really awful next year??!!!

What a

A lot of posters seem to be signing the petition for what he might do in the future rather than what he is doing

And why not? Peoples current behaviour is the best guide to their future behaviour, and he's been very vocal about his plans.

A lot of posters seem to be signing the petition for what he might do in the future rather than what he is doing.

It seems more like a lot of people attacking the petition aren't fully aware of what Trump's done in the past week; in fairness, it has been an absolutely shitstorm of stuff, much of it chaotically enacted, with multiple contradictions, uncertainties and legal challenges.

But there does seem to be an underlying impression, in some posts, that people are objecting to him because he's a bit of a wanker; a bit obnoxious, a dodgy man of many -isms. Nobody here likes him very much, but that's not the end of the world so everyone should calm down.

If you're going to criticise the protests or petition, please make sure you're up to speed with the executive orders Trump has actually signed this week, and how they'll affect people.* If you're fine with the legislation he's put in place, then that's your ideology, your choice. If you don't actually care about or understand it, and won't listen to any explanation, that's something else.

• And if you think that's a patronising request, stop asking people if they've read or understood a forty-word petition statement.

I've lived in the U.K. for ten years legally but am not yet eligible for a passport (long story, boring, not because I'm an evil crim).

I travel for work, this is non negotiable if I want to keep my job.

Lucky for me, I live here for one and have a first world white person passport for two.

If I lived in the US and had an Iranian passport, I would be relying on my employer to kindly let me keep my job despite me being suddenly completely worthless to them.

So fuck that guy and his bigotry, and no I don't want him here. Not at all. But I signed against the State visit as that was my option.

I am not trying to defend Trump, I am trying to weight up both sides and work out what is best for the UK. I seem to remember loads of American presidents doing crappy stuff, not least going to war because god told them to. We do have a lot to lose or gain in this situation and knee jerk reactions will be costly.

Ok Trump is building a few pipe lines, the UK is building HS2, Fracking, and letting China/France to build nuclear power stations here. despite protests. Trump is cutting funding for abortion groups, which every republican president does like clockwork. He sacked the Secretary General, just like Corbyn sacked 2 shadow ministers for not backing Brexit. He tells the media to shut it, which sounds like a lot of UK politicians referring to the BBC. He is against climate change, like he is the only politician to say that. He doesn't like Muslims, France banned the Burka.

I just can't get worked up about a short travel ban for a few undemocratic counties. And I certainly don't believe the Queen will be embarrassed.

It looks like a lot of people didn't really know what they were signing when they put their name to the petition. On this thread alone I have read a dozen different reasons.

Now that does sound familiar.
Which other group of people were also accused of not knowing what they were signing voting for?
Fairly recently as well.

"It seems more like a lot of people attacking the petition aren't fully aware of what Trump's done in the past week;"

R u serious?

You are implying that people don't know what he has actually done and if only they did, they would put up 'assassinate Trump' threads (oh wait, that happened) and tweets (oh yes, that did too).

Yet you give no indication about what it is you are talking about?

Perhaps you could be specific as to what exactly he did that you think people should know about it.

I just can't get worked up about a short travel ban for a few undemocratic counties.

Indeed, and anyway it's those people's fault for being born there, and not having chosen American citizenship just like that.

There are only seven Muslim countries involved, but over 40 other pre-dominantly Muslim countries are not affected. The countries he has chosen are ones where it has been proven there are active terrorist groups, some of whom have been involved in recent atrocities in Europe. Trump is obviously privey to intellgence which might suggest there are people actively looking to enter America from these countries with the intention of committing terrorism. If his actions were anything other than protecting America's borders, then he would be placing the restrictions on all 50 Muslim countries. People should look at the wider picture.

Indeed, and anyway it's those people's fault for being born there, and not having chosen American citizenship just like that

Why should people born in other countries be allowed access to America? We are leaving the EU because a lot of people want to end Freedom of movement of people. Is it that different?

Why should people born in other countries be allowed access to America?

Why should law-abiding residents and visitors be caught up, without any need for evidence of wrong-doing, just because they were born in the wrong country? Is it a temporary inconvenience to be detained for unknown lengths of time, without access to legal assistance, or even summarily deported, whilst your job, home, bills, pets, family are just meant to... wait... in suspended animation?

But no, you're quite right. This is not just entirely correct and justified, but a really excellent model for how we should run post-Brexit Britain.

There are only seven Muslim countries involved, but over 40 other pre-dominantly Muslim countries are not affected. The countries he has chosen are ones where it has been proven there are active terrorist groups, some of whom have been involved in recent atrocities in Europe. Trump is obviously privey to intellgence which might suggest there are people actively looking to enter America from these countries with the intention of committing terrorism. If his actions were anything other than protecting America's borders, then he would be placing the restrictions on all 50 Muslim countries.
People should look at the wider picture

Looking at the wider picture requires too much effort.

Far quicker and easier to sign something without giving it too much thought.
The person organizing it should have had people doing gimmicky. People love a gimmic. Something FB style, along the lines of
''I'm going to drink a bucket of my own wee to show solidarity to the cause of the moment. I now nominate......''

They would have got way more people sheep to sign the petition doing it that way.

Not saying there aren't people who have signed it because they've thought things through properly, but, just like Brexit, a lot will have jumped on the bandwagon without much thought.

To those saying Trump is not too bad, my DAD has lived here legally for 50 years, he was born in Iran but left to come here when young and met and married my mum. He has never been back there since the 70s. He is still an Iranian national, not a UK citizen.

His sister and cousins live in the states and he goes to see them every year. Not anymore! And it's looking like the Iran ban may be indefinite as Iran have said they will not comply with unfair demands put on them by the US, so guess what they won't be getting any visas if they don't think the US's demands for info on their people is fair.

He can apply for a british passport, but until and unless he gets that he won't be able to go and see his family anymore. And if they go to see him, what if they don't let them back in again? Their lives are there.

So don't tell me this is not fucking up people's lives already.