Bed blocking in hospitals

[SummitLove]

AIBU to think that actually a lot of this situation is being caused by families taking no, or very little responsibility, in caring for their elderly relatives?

Are we, as a society, now in a situation where many of us our so entitled we just expect social services or the health services to provide everything? Seems to have been a huge shift from families being involved in care to families expecting others to provide care for elderly relatives.

Mooching over this thought today and would love to hear responses from both sides.

Have three elderly people near us (one couple and one single) that we help out as their families appear to have washed their hands of them. They rarely visit, don't organise simple things like online shopping, or come and help with trimming the hedges in the summer. Honestly, it's been so cold these past few days that I would have expected someone to have called or check in on them.

And people have fewer children now. So fewer people who are able to help out.

I am from a large family and when my mum was ill, all of us took time off work to care for her. We split the care 7 ways so it was doable in terms of taking annual leave and balancing our own families.

It is a totally different story if you are an only child with a parent who has a severe condition that renders them unable to look after themselves.

Chip Why don't you just leave this thread? Honestly it's a really great discussion. You aren't adding anything to it.

If you don't believe that there aren't families out there who won't help get a relative discharged home when they could be that's up to you. There's clearly many reasons why this may or may not have happened and many people have discussed it in this thread.

I witnessed it, and I wanted to raise it and see what other people's experiences were. I quite openly asked for other opinions. There's no need to be an arse. If you think it's not due to families not providing basic care, or being reliable upon to provide basic care (or actually just being around for a night) then that's fine. But it does happen and I've seen it happen recently.

Kidnapped Yes, hadn't thought of that at all. If the care falls to one or two children, who are both single, that's significantly more difficult that 3 or 4 children who are in relationships where they can rely on their partner to provide some the care, but also rely on their partner for a bit of support on the more difficult days.

I agree with op to a point, and have some recent first hand experience.

My elderly widowed aunt is failing in health, she has always done everything for her two sons (DIL and exDIL) and four adult grandchildren all of whom live within half a mile in the same village. She has housed them all at various times and they have all benefited from her good will. She recently had a hip replacement operation done privately, and when she came home they left her alone in the house! (NHS would have not discharged in these circumstances but as it was private any after care needed to be arrange and set up by family). Aunt fell and was on the floor 6 hours the first time and still family left her alone in the house!!!! Within a week she was in the local NHS hospital, upset, depressed and feeling abandoned - she told my mum that all she wanted was for someone to stay with her at home. I am sickened at my cousins behaviour - between them they could easily have arranged for someone to be with her on her discharge from hospital and supported her for the first few weeks.
She is home again now, my brother bumped into one of our cousins and asked how she was, cousin moaned that she had asked him to get something and then phoned again to remind him, (she is forgetful) then he said that when he she called again later he ignored the call because she was probably just going to remind him again.
It makes me angry and upset at the way my aunt is being treated. Unfortunately I am not in a position to be able to help as I have a a disabled child to care for. Cousins were not much better when aunt was nursing my dying uncle at home, I was there supporting her, making food and assisting the marie curie nurses while they were carrying on as normal, one of the adult grandchildren expected aunt to cook him dinner before his shift! Two days before my uncle died I sat one cousin down and pointed out that he needed to stay with aunt and support her.

I hope my cousins children look after them in old age the same way they have looked after my aunt.

Have experience of this both as a private sector carer and looking after elderly parent for many years. Yes families should take more responsibility. If a person/patient needs any care and the extended family is unable/unwilling to provide it then yes the state should provide it but the patients entire estate should immediately become the property of the state. The state could then allow the patient to stay in the property or care home until they pass. The proceeds of this would help pay for the care of patients who haven't got any wealth. It will never happen but it would encourage wealth redistribution and familial responsibility.

'Chip Why don't you just leave this thread? Honestly it's a really great discussion. You aren't adding anything to it. '

Why should she? She's adding another opinion to it, it's just that you don't like that because it doesn't fit in with your rose-tinted, outdated idea that people bed block because their nasty relatives won't stop in with a bit of fruit and make them a cuppa.

My mum is 72, my dad 74. I'm 47. I have another 20 years of working so really won't be around to look after them a lot if they need it. Can arrange cleaning and shopping etc but not day to day care. MIL lives 2 hours away so that's not going to work either. It's the way things are and as services are cut if you take on any amount of caring you have a he'll of a job getting anything from social services so people are reluctant. If people knew they'd get so easy respite assistance etc then they might be more willing to help care.

No expat it's because she said i was in cuckooland.

Sadly very few elderly people want to think about what if they can't manage at home. I've tried to have that conversation with my parents who live 300miles from me and neither have wanted to discuss at any length as they said "its too depressing". They have said they will probably go into a home but have not looked at any or researched the subject. They are both in their mid 70s.

You asked for opinions you got them, you don't get to throw a hissy fit and start telling people to leave the thread when it's pointed out to you that your view of the world is completely removed from reality.

The current situtation is not being caused by families taking no, or very little responsibility, in caring for their elderly relatives? You just can't seem to accept that many people are not in a situation where they can take time off work, are offered carers leave, live geographically close to relatives, have enough hours in the day to taking on caring, or have relatives who actually will accept help.

Delayed discharges are complicated,multifaceted and that's the issue
As expat says it's not a lack of jolly rellies bringing fruit basket and lucozade

Granny annexe,well my word that's a very affluent and out of reach option for majority

The eldery parent ma be able to sell their home this can fund the annex.

And what if they don't have a home to sell. Don't want to relocate?or there no home to attach the granny annexe to?or the family work ft and cannot give up work to be a carer?

Chip Why don't you just leave this thread? Honestly it's a really great discussion. You aren't adding anything to it.

Why should she? She's adding another opinion to it,

the big difference is, the OP isn't rubbishing opinions just because they don't align with her own.
If anything, the OP has taken other's opinions on board.

You are coming across as slightly immature Summit.
If you don't agree with a post, say so and move on. There's no need to try and stir.

No hissyfit here Chip. Lots of people have disagreed with me, far more than have agreed with me. Another post, another insult.

It's quite clear from other people sharing they've experienced similar that my view is not removed from reality.

state should provide it but the patients entire estate should immediately become the property of the state. The state could then allow the patient to stay in the property or care home until they pass. The proceeds of this would help pay for the care of patients who haven't got any wealth

Completely agree, given that 75% of this countries wealth is held by the over 50's I would rather inherit nothing and see my parents well cared for in their old age and see the pressure on the NHS lifted.

Chip. Not Summit. fecking phone

In nearly all the cases I've heard of, which is quite a few, the person needed 24/7 care, maybe needed hoisting, maybe couldn't manage stairs, etc.,

For various reasons families often can't cope, especially if someone is very frail and needs a lot of lifting by 2 people, or needs a lot of attention during the night, or both. And from a purely practical POV, not all families have room any more, and many people with very elderly parents are still working because they can't pay the bills otherwise. Or maybe they are in poor health or disabled to some extent themselves - not so uncommon.

I'm sure there are some cases where the family just CBA, but in general I think it's because they just can't provide the sort of care the person now needs.

The trouble is that virtually all council run care homes have been closed, and the private ones that have taken over the sector typically charge an awful lot more.

There should be far more joined-up care between hospitals and the care sector, but as usual with governments, they have saved a bit of money short term, only to spend far more in the long term.

Many elderly people do not help themselves. As an ex district nurse I've seen it first hand. Many (not all) can easily afford to pay for carers, gardeners, cleaners etc, but won't, simply will not spend their money. Why should hard pushed families spend their days off cleaning for parents who are sitting on thousands? What else is the money for if not to buy in help as you age, to look after you and your property and make life safer and more comfortable.? Many also won't consider residential care, insist on going home from hospital saying they can manage and falling about all over the place, necessitating a cycle of recurrent admissions, clogging up A&E and blocking beds. Many of these cases are completely avoidable.

My DF was a carer for my DM until he died suddenly and unexpectedly. Neither myself or my siblings lived nearby (min 75 miles away). We had no choice but to get Social Care involved. We each did what we could, but couldn't be there all the time. 1 month after DF died, DM broke her hip and ended up in hospital - for 3 months as it took that long to get her mobile enough to go home. She was discharged from rehab with a 6 week care package - only they forgot to initiate the care package, so the poor old lady sat in the chair where the ambulance men left her, with her bags on the chair and no one turning up to make her dinner or help put her to bed - until I got wind of what had gone on and rattled a few cages by phone. (I know the way the system works well enough to use the right words to get the appropriate people spurred into action - even at 8pm at night!)

As a carer for my own disabled DD, I was not in a position to look after DM. Even if she had moved here it would not have been safe for her as I sometimes had to leave the house at a moments notice in a medical emergency with DD and could be gone for 2 weeks. DB's and their wives both worked full time and could not have accomodated her anyway.

In the end DM ended up in hospital and although the initial reason she was admitted was sorted, they seemed unable to decide what to do with her and whilst they came up with a plan she caught other illnesses and deteriorated due to 'institutuional neglect' ie no one helped her get out of the unsuitable chair she was sitting in so she became less mobile. We were trying to get her into a care/nursing home but sadly after 3 months in hospital, (for very little apparent reason) she died.

I used up 2 1/2 years of my respite which I got for my DD just to provide help and care for DM whilst she was still at home and to visit her when she was in hospital. DB1 used up most of his leave to take her to hospital and other appointments (as he lived 80 miles away). DB2 helped when he could but was a 4 hour drive away. In spite of all our efforts, she still needed a Social Care package - which she part funded herself. Social Care had noted "Family supportive but unable to provide regular care" on her assessment - which i think was a fair reflection of the situation.

Even where there is the willingness to help out it is not always enough. And don't get me started on how I had tried to encourage DParents to move to a more suitable property and location a few years before DF died!

Oh and yes, excellent thread.

bed blocking...

"Getting stuck in hospital"

CPtart Do you think this is something you could prepare elderly people for? Ie. my parents are still very young, but I can see them being stubborn when they are older - are there things that I could put into practice to help them prepare? Your post made me think that they are unlikely to want any help so is it better I start gently introducing help when they are 60ish say rather than it get to crisis point and it all get heaped on them? How could i make the transition easier for them (it's hopefully a very long way off)...

Confess I've skimmed through this thread so apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said but I think there is something to what the OP says. Good friend of mine is a registrar on a geriatric ward and says their busiest times are always Christmas and the school summer holidays. People bring their elderly relatives in for every minor thing, and then insist that they need to stay because everyone else is off on holiday. Once the patient is in the hospital, the hospital has a duty of care so can't turf them out to an empty house while the family's away skiing (or wherever they've gone).
However, hospitals aren't just full of old people. Rising birth rates and more complex births (medical complications, older mums etc) put strain on maternity and neonatal wards. Sedentary lifestyles, smoking, rising obesity etc put a strain on cardiac, theatre and general wards.
I don't think there's a "right" answer. The NHS needs more funding, but it also needs a spending review as wastage is ridiculously high. There needs to be some level at which people are asked to take responsibility for their own health. I'm not advocating for smokers being charged for their lung cancer treatment or anything, but there needs to be a balance between the responsibilities of the individual and those of the NHS. I don't know what that might look like in practice. There needs to be a change in how NHS staff are treated / remunerated to deal with the staffing crisis (although Brexit's not going to do us any favours on that front either). The problem is that there are so many factors behind overcrowding and they almost need to be addressed all at the same time in order to be effective. It would require a whole overhaul of NI contributions, prescribing rules, staff contracts, a public health initiative... I don't honestly think it's possible :(

The one and only reason this is a problem is the fact that succesive governments have totally failed to prepare for the aging population.

These older people have not just landed from outer space they have been here for 80+ years. Where was the planning???

All those people taking huge salaries from tax payers to run the country and the health service and failed to prepare for this are solely to blame.

I'm not making any political point this includes every government from the 50's onwards and every NHS manager from whatever political persuasion.

25 years ago when I first started working in adult social care bed blocking had already been the major problem for a decade at least.

The only thing that surprises me is people still believe that voting for the same muppets is ever going to change anything.