Bed blocking in hospitals

[SummitLove]

AIBU to think that actually a lot of this situation is being caused by families taking no, or very little responsibility, in caring for their elderly relatives?

Are we, as a society, now in a situation where many of us our so entitled we just expect social services or the health services to provide everything? Seems to have been a huge shift from families being involved in care to families expecting others to provide care for elderly relatives.

Mooching over this thought today and would love to hear responses from both sides.

Have three elderly people near us (one couple and one single) that we help out as their families appear to have washed their hands of them. They rarely visit, don't organise simple things like online shopping, or come and help with trimming the hedges in the summer. Honestly, it's been so cold these past few days that I would have expected someone to have called or check in on them.

The reality is that most couples both need to work now just to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.

My own parents have never been great/bordering on abusive to be honest and I dread the day this comes because, really, I feel no obligation to help them but I'm too soft hearted to watch them suffer so probably will help but not to the detriment of my career.

Also I work for nhs and don't get the leave the OP is on about I currently get 5 parental leave days a year, to cover sickness and such like. The rest is annual leave which I think amounts to roughly 4/5 weeks.

Another point, pp have pointed out about annexes being built on, the truth is that more and more people are renting and especially my generation (I'm 28) and the ones coming behind me, so how exactly are they going to build an annexe onto something the don't own?

There are so many different layers to this, I work in the community and see it every day, it's not as simple as popping in for cups of tea and shopping. Not enough home care agencies or care homes also I think some of the people who do the assessing can be wrong at times, i have seen some total wasting of district nursing resources!

OP round us we have people trying to help even those we're not related to. I visit several people including two with incipient dementia and bring lunches etc. There's a lunch club and one which helps people to walk a little and get out in their gardens/along the street. I know of at least three women who gave up their jobs to look after parents or elderly relatives who lived nearby - doing personal care, washing faecal sheets twice a day, getting up at 5am to make sure they were ok and making breakfast, lunch and supper. The key was their families were local and there were enough people to bear the burden. And that the women giving up their jobs had a man who could support that choice. And clearly you have a system for the three elderly people you support. But as so many PPs have said on this thread

1. Some parents live so far away it's not possible
2. Some parents don't want to downsize or lose their independence
3. Some families can't afford to help or have no time to help
4. Help isn't just cutting hedges and making cups of tea with someone with complex care needs
5. In the old days people didn't necessarily live long enough to have those complex care needs. My GM looked after two sets of grandparents in her own (large) house but they were mostly dead by 70. As was she, exhausted by it all. MY GF lived till 95.
6. The lovely warm big families in other countries where they look after their elderly - hmm. I'm sure it can be great but again - what do they do about extreme needs?
7. I'm sure there are appalling families- including it seems the Californian mother and son who flew the senile father to Britain and dumped him here - but most people are trying to do their best for the people they love and battling the lack of social care.

What does seem to be the case, judging by many of the posts here, is that the elderly relatives have not made any plans or provision, apart from one or two mentioned above, for what will happen when they become infirm.
In fact it is amazing with all the present publicity about lack of care homes and the cost of going into one that still we aren't planning even a 'just in case' scenario.
It's quite annoying that everyone hangs on hoping they will pass away quietly in their beds when the evidence that that is unlikely is all around them (which it must be as their friends and siblings pass away or move into homes).
The next generation is landed with all the stress and worry.

How do you plan for care costing upwards of £3K a month?
When there is such a shortage of care homes and an even bigger shortage of reasonably good ones?
None of us know when illness or disability will strike.
Once you become ill you are at the mercy of other people and may not be able to make any choices.
My parents and PIL were all self funding after being cared for by us for 15 years. They all sold their homes and used their pensions. It was still a full time job visiting daily to protect their interests while in the care homes.

I agree. So many elderly people I know have said, "They'll have to carry me out of here in a box." But that rarely happens. The big heart-attack only happens to a few. For most people it's a slow decline, and that decline can last decades with improved medicines. Mil had extreme dementia. No one could have cared for her at home. Doubly incontinent, no notion of the 24-hour clock so awake at random times, angry, shouting...

Regarding paying for care, it would take a Solomon to find a solution. On the one hand, it seems very wrong for people to access free help and care when they're living in a £1m+ house (like most of my neighbours) which then they can pass on to their dcs, whilst the ordinary taxpaying schmuck picks up the tab. Otoh, why should someone else who either has never had anything or cannily offloaded their assets get everything free?

One thing that seems imperative to me is to bring back geriatric hospitals. I know this may be seen as non-pc today, as campaigners for the elderly maintain that a 95-year-old is just as an entitled to a heart transplant as a 3-year-old, but if you go in a hospital, nearly all the patients in, say, an orthopaedic ward are elderly and a large proportion suffering from dementia.

Few of us could plan for care costing 3k a month, absolutely, but I think what was meant is that too many people are reluctant to make any plans at all. Hence insisting on living up the arse end of nowhere when unable to drive, not considering future mobility and proximity to hospitals, refusing to contemplate downsizing etc. Sometimes whilst expecting family members to deal with the consequences of their decisions.

Obviously none of this applies to people with such severe care needs that they couldn't possibly live anywhere other than a specialist facility. I think it was more in respect of people who might feasibly be able to live at home with support if they had used their sense about their living arrangements.

The trouble is dementia creeps up and by the time intervention is required it's too late for someone to move house/arrange care themselves etc.

If someone (eg your dcs) told you , today, that you have dementia, you'd say, "Don't be so insulting and ridiculous!" I know I would. And that's exactly what most older people say. They hotly deny any decline in capability. With mil, fil was desperately covering for her and when bil tried to get an assessment the pil closed ranks and refused to speak to any of their dc for months.

Even without dementia, most older people I know absolutely refuse to contemplate household aids or cleaners, and as for downsizing ! Previous poster is right, it's selfish but I have read that as we age we become much more self-centred.

Yes exactly it creeps up. Which is why people need to be thinking about this well in advance. Not when they're 78 and getting all forgetful. It isn't just the elderly themselves either. Other family members can be very resistant to the idea. There's generally poor understanding of the fact that you have to be proactive not reactive, and the optimum time to move is when you don't actually need to.

Dh and I are looking to move home in the next decade, when we'll be in our 50's. We want a home that we can manage in without moving again, so either single storey, or enough space downstairs to convert into bedroom and walk in shower room.
This will only help if we have physical issues though.

Martin Whatshisface of Money Saving Expert says we should all set up Lasting Power of Attorneys, regardless of our age. He said he and his wife both have them, because you just don't know what could happen.

You can fill them in online, get them filed (at a cost obv) and then forget about them until they are needed.

They take 10 weeks to be actioned and cannot be made once someone is deemed incapable of signing it.

It's worth considering folks, seriously.

If someone (eg your dcs) told you , today, that you have dementia, you'd say, "Don't be so insulting and ridiculous!" I know I would. And that's exactly what most older people say. They hotly deny any decline in capability.

My grandmother is like that - she suffers from Alzheimers and my grandfather has Lewy body dementia - and he is currently "bed blocking" in hospital where he has been since before Christmas because we can't find somewhere to accommodate his needs. He fell in November and as some of the symptoms of his LBD are similar to thise of concussion, they admitted him for observation, but then subsequently decided that it's not safe for him to go home without a comprehensive care plan. However, he and my grandmother need differing levels of care but she is aware enough to refuse live in carers as she doesn't want that kind of invasion of her privacy but not aware enough to understand that my grandfather can't come home without it.

GM just needs carers to pop in twice a day to give her her medication and maybe put a ready meal in the microwave for her, although she complains about them all the time as her Alzheimers has destroyed any brain to mouth filter she had (although it was never the greatest anyway lol). She is still fairly independant though - my uncle takes her shopping every Friday and we have a rota of at least one family member popping in every day to check if she needs any shooping topping up or washing popping in etc, but she can still wash/dress/look after herself. My GF on the other hand now requires 24 hr care as his LBD means he basically has no awareness of what he is doing and is prone to wandering, is doubly incontinent, struggles to communicate and is very prone to falls.

GM refused to accept that their health was failing, and it was a huge struggle to get them to leave the family home in the middle of nowhere that was only accessed by one road that was prone to flooding (we live on the coast) that had become unmanageable. They finally moved into a bungalow nearer us on the mainland and even then my grandmother refused any kind of help, she felt like she could look after my grandfather and got very angry and defensive if we suggested carers or anyone coming in, and she only agreed to carers coming in 3 times a day to give medication because made up some BS story of the doctor needing it "officially recording" that the medications were given, and then she was okay with it.

She'd do things like put clothes in the washer/dryer, switch it on but not start the cycle, so when she came back later on she thought the cycle had finished, take the clothes out and put them away, still unwashed ... but if you tried to point out the fact that things were still marked or stained when she put them back on again, she'd either get angry or upset. She also struggles to understand the time now, so when it gets dark = bedtime, and so with it being dark early, she sometimes goes to bed as early as 5pm as she assumes it's later. It's really hard to watch and as both of her parents are suffering this, and nursing both of her PILs through it my mother has always said that if she ever started showing symptoms of the disease then she'd rather shoot herself than put herself and the rest of the family through the heartache, and I can totally understand her reasoning.

If someone (eg your dcs) told you , today, that you have dementia, you'd say, "Don't be so insulting and ridiculous!" I know I would

Well so would I unless my DC was a psychiatrist.

My DSis has just been diagnosed with Parkinsons and Dementia (by a consultant psychiatrist), she is 71. And not in denial. But trying her best to remain 'normal' so she doesn't lose her driving licence. But has set up lasting POA with her DS.

Oh joy Had the letter today saying that DHs DLA is stopping and we are going to have to claim PIP.

More stress.

Like i said some people have no idea.

helena try not to stress too much. I know its easier said than done.
My OH's DLA was transferred to PIP last year. I took my time filling in the form and went with him to the assessment. It all went through ok.
You only really hear about the horror stories but its not always like that.

HelenaDove, fingers crossed it goes smoothly. TheFirstMrsDV is right, we hear horror stories but sometimes tey can go smoothly. My son's DLA was changed over to PIP when he turned 16 and apart from the usual admin (being given an appt for the assessment for 30 Septemebr but not actually getting the letter until 2nd October), it was relatively painless. (My son was born prematurely with a number of health problems though so it wasn't anything relatively new). IF there are any problems get in touch with your MP, or have a look here (not just for women despite the name):

www.winvisible.org/

I do agree with you though. Some people really don't have a clue!

Thankyou for your support. DH is not well enough to travel. So we are hoping to ask for an assessment done at home.

Ive just seen Tory minister David Mowat on Channel 4 news saying how its the responsibility of families to look after their elderly.

The hypocrisy is mind blowing.

Im sure his next step will be a campaign for CA to be raised to enable families to do this.

PMSL

David Mowat is quite welcome to have MIL and DM living with him! How the hell does he think we can care for them when we are both working part time and live in a one bedroom maisonette?

MIL is now in a care home but there's no way we could have cared for her - there's no room with us and there was no way I was moving into a house with no central heating to care for someone who didn't even like me!

DM still lives in the family home, but as it's only a 2 bed semi it's manageable. Downstairs was converted for my DF when he cold no longer get up and down stairs and DM is going to be moving downstairs as soon as it's redecorated and a new bed is delivered. She wants to do it as she knows it's the sensible option and means she can hopefully stay at home for longer.

He doesn't mean "people look after their parents"
He means "women"

I'm sure David Mowat is very handy with a hedge trimmer, I just don't think he'd be up for helping to toilet another adult, feed them or wash and dress them.

Badders i agree. i said exactly the same.

Yup, David Mowatt said that families accept looking after their children without question & it should be the same with parents. I'd like to ask him how many years he stayed at home raising his family. I bet he never had so much as a day off for a sick child.

Maybe he'll build lots of large social housing stock with granny flats attached to help everyone wanting to do this.

Ha ha ha

Well, it's a bit like the Gov blaming GPs and SServices for bed blocking. The fact is that caring for the elderly is, like the NHS, a bottomless pit. And unless the Gov raises tax somehow, somewhere to pay for it we are up a gumtree. It doesn't sound as if they are going to do that.

There is a problem in the UK of expecting someone else to sort your problems although obviously as care and the NHS are stretched that will disappear. So you could say he is just flagging up the fact that we can't depend on care services being available.

HelenaDove you can ask for the decision to be made without an assessment - I didn't do this but in the end they made their decision on the medical evidence and the DWP didn't dispute it, but I know that might be because he was born premature and has had health problems from birth., the majority of which are not going to go away On that link to WinVisible there should be a section on DLA/PIP.
2 of my friends were given appointments for assessment in other counties (ffs) - they are both in London, but one was asked to take her daughter to Milton Keynes and the other was asked to go to Reading. One of them has a MH support worker who got it changed, and the other just raung them and said she couldn't get to Milton Keynes and they did change it. It can be so stressful, but if they refuse to do the home assessment I think you can appeal it.

I hope it goes well, keeping fingers crossed for you & your husband

But I don't know, the cheek of us not looking after our elderly relatives when we're already carers for other people! As Kenneth Williams said, ooh we are naughty not to find time in our already jam packed days to go & make them cups of tea and therefore solve the bed blocking crisis

Few of us could plan for care costing 3k a month, absolutely, but I think what was meant is that too many people are reluctant to make any plans at all

Yup, see my previous post about the relative who bought a house "with character" and a spiral staircase and no capacity for a downstairs loo in their late 60s with existing health problems!

On the one hand they're all "it's my money and I want to enjoy what's left of my independence" but they're not the ones that'll be carrying comode pans up and down a spiral staircase to empty it when they can't get to the loo any more!