Furious: Girl Guides now admitting boys

[shinynewusername]

Sorry for DM link but this is important. Brownies and Guides are going to admit boys if they identify as girls. Girls will have to share 'single sex' facilities including tents & changing rooms with them. Parents won't be told. Oh, and men who identify as women can become Brownie & Guide leaders, where they will get to supervise girls in those tents, changing rooms etc.

How is this possible? There is an epidemic of sexual abuse. We are still in the fall-out of Rotherham, Saville etc yet we are enabling men to have access to every safe space for girls. AIBU?

IfitQuacks.
If I as a man went into the situation you describe I would be unhappy getting undressed with any other person. If it were a woman just trying on a coat, I would still feel intimidated.
The 'shop' is at fault for not providing suitably 'cubicled' changing areas.
Relating this to GG/Scouts is not a fair comparison.
Girls may tend to do 'changing' in groups of friends, likewise boys but NOT together in a common space.

When was the last time anyone saw your breasts in a public changing room?

This morning when I was changing for swimming. My local pool only has communal single sex changing rooms. This is the same pool that guides use while on guide camp.

In any case, in this example only boys that IDENTIFY as girls will be admitted - to all intents and purpose, the child IS a girl

How?
Seriously, how? How is a boy with a penis and testicles and male chromosomes a girl? What defines the term girl?

There is an obvious reply that it shouldn't be at the expense of your daughter. Would you say the same when someone tells you a disabled pupil is getting extra cash to attend school or a child with SEN has a PSA following them costing the LEA £40k?

A better analogy would be someone without SEN demanding to go to a special school and insisting that everyone is taught at their level.

Do you really think that women are treated equally in our world SWOT?

This isn't actually about banning transgender children from these groups.

Trans children have been going to groups for years with very few problems.

This is about the self identification being adopted as a policy in organisations.

It's self identification that is the huge problem here. Not allowances being made in individual circumstances.

Individual circumstances can be catered to and plans made to protect everyone.

Self identification policies mean that it is open to abuse and nobody can do a thing about it because it's 'transphobic'.

do they go to guide camp EVERY meeting then? as as far as i know thats a once or twice a year?

how do the girls feel about changing in front of other girls? i would have hated it and not gone - or hidden under a towel anyway

Rather bigoted to have such disdain for mental issues

This is admitting that gender dysphoria is a "mental issue". So why don't we treat it as such? People with mental illness have all sorts of fixed beliefs and delusions. We don't treat them by colluding with the delusion - that's harmful to the patient, not to mention others. You cannot change your biological sex.

This guy identifies as a 6 year old girl. Should he be allowed on a children's hospital ward or soft play area? If not, why not? - it's how he identifies and he explicitly says that identifying this way is important for his mental health. And, before anyone says he is not typical trans, he advised the Canadian government on their trans policy and is explicitly cited by them.

Women can be rapists.

Not legally, no.

In the UK rape is defined as penetrating someone with a penis without that persons consent.

Only men can be charged with rape in the UK. Women can be charged with sexual assault, not rape.

I'm so sad and frustrated by these repeated threads. I'm going to suggest that Mumsnet invite suitable representatives of Guiding and Stonewall (or similar) to privide some reasonable, factual discussion.

I'm also going to as MN to look at how many transphobic comments they allow. I'm certain that they wouldn't permit an equivalent level of homophobia or racism.

Nobody has said that women can't be predators either so I have no idea why people keep trotting out 'but women can assault people too!' Not one person on here has denied that women aren't capable of being pedophiles or sexually assaulting people.

Pointing out that the majority of violent offences and sexual offences are carried out by men is not the same thing as saying women never carry out these offences.

I agree with @DullUserName

I'm also going to as MN to look at how many transphobic comments they allow.

What trans phobic comments?

People are always so keen to shout "transphobia!" on these threads but never give any specific examples.

Saying that someone with a penis is biologically male is not trans phobic. That's just biology. How can science and biology be transphobic?

@dullusername

Can you please give me a factual definition of a human female?

jellyfrizz

Why would that be a better analgoy?

What you (or whichever poster I was replying to) said was that for the benefit of the majority, the minority should suffer.

I'm saying that if a little compassion from a group helps someone who will have struggles in their life beyond what many of us can imagine, we should do it.

I diagree entirely with the prediction that rapes at guides will increase because of men being there. Again, it's only a prediction. What you seem to be against is the transboys as opposed to the transmen though.

I don't think men and women are treated the same but I don't think we are the same. I have very un-PC notions that we are different mentally and physically, as a result of millions of years of evolution as opposed to a few thousand of an 'oppressive patriarchy' though.

I think that girls and boys process information differently, think differently, learn differently and respond to stimuli differently. I think that because of this, positive discrimination has made my belief (equally scientifically valid as the alternative, may I add) unacceptable to many third wave feminists.

The reason I get so confused by the bigotry towards trans people on these threads is that feminism pretends to be for equality for anyone yet whenever a cause threatens their special status as a protected class, they get all indignant and cry misogyny.

I really don;t understand the misogyny part. These people want to be women and believe they are them but at the same time hate them? That detracts from the other thought provoking and intelligent posts the anti-trans people post!

If the issue is 'self-identifying', if a Dr agrees that someone is trans, is that okay? I assume that there is some form of evaluation that can be done and is usually correct.

I'm also going to as MN to look at how many transphobic comments they allow. I'm certain that they wouldn't permit an equivalent level of homophobia or racism.

I think their silence has told you everything you need to know!

Nobody has said that women can't be predators either

Every thread like this someone says "all rapists are men"!

Fish, I agree, but, it's ALSO about the loss of a female only space.

How many Muslim girls will now not be able to participate in GG?

And, also, my personal concern is that I have no way of knowing whether my 13 year old daughter is sharing a tent with someone with a penis.

I can't see why my parental responsibilities matter less than the parents of a kid who's trans. That's grotesque.

Can I suggest you report each individual example of transphobia you see on the thread so MNHQ can take a look.

I will be interested to see what is classed as transphobia and deleted.

And, re rapes - these are children we are talking about. 10-14 year olds.

Most girls who get pregnant in their early teens do so in consensual relationships. It's about poor education, lack of access to contraception and unsupervised teens experimenting with stuff they've seen online.

No-one (except trans-activists) actually believes that Danielle Muscato is now actually a woman.

However, she says she is.

If Danielle Muscato doesn't look like a woman, doesn't present as a woman, is not perceived as a woman, is happy with her penis, and accepts and utilises her male biology, has always lived as a man and not experienced anything in real life that women do, including biology, what else is left to make Danielle a woman? Seriously, what else is there ? There is not some secret list of things defining womanhood that no-one knows about.

stealtheatingtunnocks

But the issue there is Islam.

I only use that as an example. Religion is the only example of patriarchy I vbelieve still exists.

I have no way of knowing whether my 13 year old daughter is sharing a tent with someone with a penis

Why is that a problem? Is it because you believe all men are rapists?

What about children camping with their parents? Their mothers are the most likely to kill them and the fathers most likely to sexually abuse them. Do families going on holiday fill you with dread?

stealtheatingtunnocks

But the issue there is Islam.

I only use that as an example. Religion is the only example of patriarchy I vbelieve still exists.

I have no way of knowing whether my 13 year old daughter is sharing a tent with someone with a penis

Why is that a problem? Is it because you believe all men are rapists?

What about children camping with their parents? Their mothers are the most likely to kill them and the fathers most likely to sexually abuse them. Do families going on holiday fill you with dread?

Fish - transphobia appears to be any woman saying "hang on, what about me?"

If the issue is 'self-identifying', if a Dr agrees that someone is trans, is that okay? I assume that there is some form of evaluation that can be done and is usually correct.

Now all someone has to do is say they are transgender and the doctor has to agree, it's transphobic not to.

3 years ago there were long processes of counselling and evaluations to go through, now all you have to do is wake up and decide you are transgender.

It really is changed days, and not for the better.

This biggest concern here shouldn't be the tiny number of trans girls who will now be admitted, but the hundreds/thousands of girls who, for religious/cultural reasons, will no longer be able to attend.

Girl guiding used to be about including all girls and their single sex approach was to ensure these girls could be included.

You may not agree with their families reasoning, but by preventing these girls from attending you are removing one of the few ways we can share experiences out with schools, and possibly support them to stand up to those religious/cultural oppressions.

It's self identification that is the huge problem here. Not allowances being made in individual circumstances.

Pretty much this.

There was a poster on the other thread about this who spoke of her experience of a boy at school who she described as being a "sex offender in the making". He would stand outside the girls changing rooms and tell the teacher that he was really a girl so he should be allowed in.

Of course that was a load of crap. He wasn't really a girl; he was a boy who was trying his luck at getting into the girls changing rooms for a perv.

If that had happened today then his needs would have been pandered to and he would have been allowed to use the girls changing rooms because he 'feels' like a girl (or the school would be accused of bigotry and transphobia otherwise).

If you honestly believe that some predatory men won't use the self identification road we're going down then you're very naive.

Now all someone has to do is say they are transgender and the doctor has to agree, it's transphobic not to.

I've heard similar arguments throughout my life such as:

"if she doesn't get the promotion she'll just cry sexism" (misogyny wasn't used as commonly then)

"if you sack him he'll cry racism..."

Now, those comments would be deemed socially unacceptable. I suspect the same will be said of "crying transphobia" fairly soon. This doesn't mean we'll suffer, it's the society is become more accepting of differences and realises that there's room for us all yes, but no room here. This is a women only safe space