Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Furious: Girl Guides now admitting boys

506 replies

shinynewusername · 22/01/2017 10:06

Sorry for DM link but this is important. Brownies and Guides are going to admit boys if they identify as girls. Girls will have to share 'single sex' facilities including tents & changing rooms with them. Parents won't be told. Oh, and men who identify as women can become Brownie & Guide leaders, where they will get to supervise girls in those tents, changing rooms etc.

How is this possible? There is an epidemic of sexual abuse. We are still in the fall-out of Rotherham, Saville etc yet we are enabling men to have access to every safe space for girls. AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
stealtheatingtunnocks · 22/01/2017 13:51

Of course I don't believe all men are rapists. Or that camping is dangerous. You are being silly.

I know, however, that the majority of teenagers are randy wee rascals.

I would not allow my 13 year old to share a room with a boyfriend so I am exasperated that Guiding is making a different choice about my daughter's experiences on my behalf.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 13:52

Every thread like this someone says "all rapists are men"!

And legally that is correct. Only men can be charged with rape in the UK. Women can still be (and have been) charged with sexual assault though.

That is not the same thing as saying women are never predatory. Not at all.

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 22/01/2017 13:53

stealtheatingtunnocks before the self identification your dd wouldn't have been sharing a tent with anyone with a penis.

Allowances may have been made where the child would sleep and shower separately (usually telling others it was for medical reasons if nobody knew they were trans) but nobody would have been put into the position of biological males and females sharing sleeping and changing facilities.

As I said up thread as well it would have been down to the leader to decide, knowing the circumstances of everyone in the group and the circumstances of the child who wanted to join if it was going to be a problem.

Although it was a bit harder for the child, it was in the best interests of everyone to do it that way.

It's just a mess now. So open to people abusing the system.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 13:54

That was meant to say - If you honestly believe that some predatory men won't use the self identification road we're going down to their advantage then you're very naive.

jellyfrizz · 22/01/2017 13:55

I diagree entirely with the prediction that rapes at guides will increase because of men being there. Again, it's only a prediction. What you seem to be against is the transboys as opposed to the transmen though.

Me too. I believe GG has good safeguarding. I have been on the courses.

I'm not against trans boys or men I believe GG should be single-sex not single-gender so trans boys and men would be as welcome as any other female in that case, however they present themselves.
I'm also not against trans girls or women. I wish life was easier for them and believe people should be able to present how they wish. I don't believe in gender stereotypes and thought that GG didn't either.

jellyfrizz · 22/01/2017 13:57

yes, but no room here. This is a women only safe space

But that is/was the whole point of GG, read their mission page.

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 22/01/2017 13:58

SWOTAnalysis people shouting transphobia now means that children with gender identity disorder now cannot receive proper psychiatric help unless they get started on puberty blockers.

Do you really think that is acceptable?

I see the way the world is heading. Confused, possibly suicidal, children being sterilised at a young age rather than get help with their mental health because it's 'transphobic' not to.

In 10-20 years time MN will make for very sad reading when people who think they are helping realise the massive fuck up that is going on right now when it's too late to help the kids going through this.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 13:59

Why are so many people always so keen to shout out "transphobia!" on these threads but none of them ever give specific examples?

Perhaps if you told us specifically what you have a problem with then we'd be more likely to take your opinion on board.

venusinscorpio · 22/01/2017 14:01

SWOT, it's very clear to me that you don't really know what people are talking about - you are likely to get death threats on twitter if you posted to transactivists that it's a mental health issue, as you said earlier (which I fully agree with FWIW). Yet you feel that you can pompously lecture people who do understand a lot more about it than you and are dismayed at how much women, girls and children of both sexes with gender dysphoria are being thrown under the bus to appease aggressive misogynistic men and clueless virtue signallers like you.

TammySwansonxx · 22/01/2017 14:05

Predatory men are already using the self identification laws to their advantage. It seems that every week there's another story about women being secretly filmed in Target changing rooms and loos since they changed their policy. One university that changed loos to be "gender neutral" had to change them back due to the number of secret filming incidents. Christopher/Jessica Hanbrook was allowed into two women's shelters in Canada where he went on to sexually assault 3 women and a teenage girl. And speaking of teenage girls, a swim team in Washington now have to get changed in the disabled loos because a self identified transwoman likes to hang out with their cock out in the women's changing rooms at the same time as they meet every week.

Brilliantly progressive.

Gallavich · 22/01/2017 14:05

feminism pretends to be for equality for anyone

No it bloody doesn't. Feminism is a women's movement for the liberation of women from the patriarchy. People who claim that feminism is for everyone have misunderstood feminism. Feminism is not for men, or for males who identify as women. They can have their own liberation movements.

BoffinMum · 22/01/2017 14:16

I used to be keen on letting anything go when it came to gender. I thought it was primarily social and learned anyway. Then I noticed the numbers of women on boards was actually reducing and there were fewer women in the top ranks of lots of fields. Where they existed they had been invariably given the 'glass cliff' tasks with higher risk of failure and lower potential rewards. I had a revelation at that point. By closing down all-woman spaces we are also closing down women's empowerment training ground, as well as their leadership opportunities.

I think you need single sex scouts and guides, with the option of a co-ed group if people want it. We must not lose women-only spaces. Similarly I think there's a case for boy-only scouts as an option.

CancellyMcChequeface · 22/01/2017 14:16

Is it 'transphobic' to say that a boy cannot become a girl - to affirm that biological sex exists? To deny the existence of gendered brains and the 'brain in the wrong body' narrative, which is pseudoscience? I'm really struggling to see how else people on this thread can be accused of it.

Datun · 22/01/2017 14:16

I really don;t understand the misogyny part. These people want to be women and believe they are them but at the same time hate them? That detracts from the other thought provoking and intelligent posts the anti-trans people post!

TRAs have coined the term TERF, standing for trans exclusionary radical feminist. But it is used to silence anyone who disagrees with any of the ideology, whether it's by a man, woman, or trans person. I don't hate trans-people, I am very supportive of the parent on here who has a transgender child.

But there is no doubt that the ideology attracts a lot of misogyny.

This is an example:
terfisaslur.com/

And no, Maria Miller's Parliamentary report recommends the removal of all criteria other than self identification. No doctor, no counselling, no certification.

TammySwansonxx · 22/01/2017 14:30

Some transwomen definitely hate women. Look at Caitlin Jenner - doesn't believe in abortion for example.

Others just hate us for wasting what they see the purpose of being a woman is , i.e. To be the most entertaining series of fuck holes possible. See Paris Lees.

Suppermummy02 · 22/01/2017 14:51

This whole debate is ridiculous, my DD did the Duke of Edinburgh award last year, one of their group was 13, rest 14 but it was a mixed group of boys and girls . I dont remember anyone asking or complaining about mixed sex groups going camping, its been happening for years, get over it.

Secondly, if a man and woman are having sex but only one of them has consented then its rape, pure and simple. Its semantics and a legal disgrace in this country that it is only considered rape if its the woman that hasn't consented.

OddBoots · 22/01/2017 14:59

"I dont remember anyone asking or complaining about mixed sex groups going camping" Did they share tents?

Wtfdoipick · 22/01/2017 15:07

I dont remember anyone asking or complaining about mixed sex groups going camping, its been happening for years, get over it

The difference is that you were fully aware that it was mixed sex but guides are not being informed, besides I also suspect they didn't share tents with the opposite sex. I know it was completely banned when mine did DofE to share with the opposite sex. You can't compare an agreed mixed sex event with one which should be single sex as there are not the same safeguards.

worridmum · 22/01/2017 15:09

This sexism really annoys me men cannot have a male on group / area because its sexist but female can?, there was a thread on here a few months ago where someone was running a male only craft club as predomenitly these are taken over by girls so it was to fill a niche as a boys only group, and a women complaned to the hall owners that was sexist and discimiatory and so the owners want the OP to open it up to girls even though they allow girl gudies and brownies go?

To further to this in my area the majority of girls in scouts and cubs also do brownies and guides so effectlive monoplizing all the places as the girls can be in both.

You do know males in many muslim communties cannot do activities with members of the other gender so they are effectivly exculded from scout now that they let females in but no one cares about that aslong as women can keep there sexist discimating club open.

Sorry for the mini rant i jsut hate hypocitocy of people thinking sex discimatino only effect women

titchy · 22/01/2017 15:11

Scouts can be boys only if there is justification, such as a Muslim group worridmum...

worridmum · 22/01/2017 15:14

They cannot as it was attempted in leicester but the group was taken to court and was forced to fold....

titchy · 22/01/2017 15:16

MN Poster: AIBU to tell my 14 yo dd she cannot have her 14 yo (male but currently identifying as a girl) girlfriend to sleepover in her bedroom?

MN: YANBU! You'd be a complete fool to think they wouldn't get up to anything.

Replace bedroom with tent, and parent with GG leader, and suddenly all is fine. Teens take note!!

SWOTAnalysis · 22/01/2017 15:18

AVirginLitTheCandle

Would you have been up in arms if someone had said, of a husband in 1990, "he may be predatory but he can't be a rapist"?

I find you and others making the distinction very, very sad.

Do you have an excuse for it?

If you honestly believe that some predatory men won't use the self identification road we're going down then you're very naive.

Like joining the priesthood or becoming a TV presenter or teacher or Primary School cleaner.

Sadly, there are some people who will find a victim. You aren't so much depriving them of access as shoving them somewhere else. Also, I think, somewhere much easier where they don't even have to pretend to be something they're not (male/female-wise at least).

If you honestly believe that some predatory men won't use the self identification road we're going down to their advantage then you're very naive.

Why? You are making a prediction as am I. Do you know what I'd do if I wanted to see some boys in 'unusual' situations? I'd become a teacher. Perhaps a parent. A community club leader. Social worker. One of the millions of other opportunities where both sexes are openly accepted without having to pretend to be trans.

Steal

I know, however, that the majority of teenagers are randy wee rascals.

I went to an all girls school. Secondary in the early 80s. I can attest to the randiness. At least there was no risk of pregnancy...

jellyfrizz
yes, but no room here. This is a women only safe space

But that is/was the whole point of GG, read their mission page.

That embarasses me, as a woman who wanted (and feel I now have) equal access to male spaces.

FishInAWet

I see the way the world is heading. Confused, possibly suicidal, children being sterilised at a young age rather than get help with their mental health because it's 'transphobic' not to.

This is the first thread of this kind I've posted on but have read others. Someone else wrote a more involved post like yours along the same lines and it really made me think and consider it.

I agree that they should have help. Not because they have mental health problems but because they're 'uncommon' and may need help understanding this and how they fit in in a world where they are a minority. The same way I think gay should (and do) have access to help.

I don't see 'accepting without question' should mean withdrawing help.

venusinscorpio

it's very clear to me you don't know what people are talking about

Shhhh. The adults are talking. The adults who try to explain their opinion to someone they think is wrong without resorting to being immature.

Gallavich

Refreshing honesty. Most pretend it's for the benefit of all.

Boffin

Where they existed they had been invariably given the 'glass cliff' tasks with higher risk of failure and lower potential rewards.

I'd like to read about this. I'm professionally successful and I'd guess at the level of 'board member' but not in the corporate world.

Datun

#killallmen

With the advent of the internet, you can find 'proof' of anything.

I hate the way TRA and MRA are treated as such disdainful terms. Surely, it's absolutely no different to 'feminist' according to gallavich, isn't it?

TammySwansonxx
Some transwomen definitely hate women. Look at Caitlin Jenner - doesn't believe in abortion for example.

Not believing in abortion is not equal to hating women. It usually comes down to their god having told them it's wrong.

One of my posts was deleted. No idea why. I assume this one won't be.

I have a different opinion to some of you but am trying to be intelligent and respectful!

titchy · 22/01/2017 15:20

Probably as well. They'd have been forced to admit females anyway as long as they said they were boys.

Actually 3.6 states where there are cultural reasons a single sex group can operate...

titchy · 22/01/2017 15:21

Sorry link:

http://scouts.org.uk/media/761074/Chapter-3.pdf