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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Furious: Girl Guides now admitting boys

506 replies

shinynewusername · 22/01/2017 10:06

Sorry for DM link but this is important. Brownies and Guides are going to admit boys if they identify as girls. Girls will have to share 'single sex' facilities including tents & changing rooms with them. Parents won't be told. Oh, and men who identify as women can become Brownie & Guide leaders, where they will get to supervise girls in those tents, changing rooms etc.

How is this possible? There is an epidemic of sexual abuse. We are still in the fall-out of Rotherham, Saville etc yet we are enabling men to have access to every safe space for girls. AIBU?

OP posts:
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OopsDearyMe · 22/01/2017 19:21

These institutions have so much safeguarding these days and someone should tell the OP that we are NOT in an epidemic of sexual abuse nor are all paedophiles male!

AgainstTheOddsNo2 · 22/01/2017 19:23

I just don't get it.

Who of you checks for a Penis on everyone they meet? If you do you are pretty weird.

It seems that people just find it ok to hold these views. So is it OK for a girl who has come out as a lesbian to be a girl guide and go on residential trips? Of course it bloody is! So what's the issue with a trans person?

One of the reasons dd goes to beavers is that actually the world isn't split down gender lines. Nor should it be.

mistressWiseGuy · 22/01/2017 19:24

Yanbu. I think it's unbelievable that they have done this. And they claim to be against gender stereotyping. It doesn't add up.

NotMe321 · 22/01/2017 19:27

Those who scream transphobe seem to melt away when presented with reality

Or when bullied away from the thread. These threads are remarkable for their intolerance of differing opinions.

Gallavich · 22/01/2017 19:28

Misleading title as they are not actaullt letting boys in are they, they ase letting transgender children who believe themselves to be gir!s join

Boys who believe themselves to be girls are still boys

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 19:32

nor are all paedophiles male!

Nobody has said that all peadophiles are male. Please direct me to a post on this thread where someone has stated that there are no female peadophiles or abusers. I guarantee you that you won't find any.

What people have correctly stated is that the vast majority of sexual offences are committed by men and that the majority of peadophiles are male. That is not the same thing as saying all peadophiles are male or that no females are peadophiles.

CharlieSierra · 22/01/2017 19:33

There are instances such as Lila Perry with the visible penis through the skirt complaining vociferously to the media about prejudice when it's pretty clear that Lila enjoys intimidating the girls in their spaces

However it is easy for posters to dismiss these instances as terribly unlikely. Particularly in a controlled Girl Guide environment

I think a lot of them don't know about the likes of Lila Perry. I wonder how welcoming and inclusive they would be about an obvious autogynephile waving their semi around the girls dorm. However the GG threads have frustrated me because they have tended to focus on the threat of sexual assault rather than the freedom of young females to express themselves away from the male gaze and to not have to compete with male privilege. That has always been the mission of the GG movement. Plenty of clear examples have been given about the negative effects on the girls behaviour which result from the presence of boys.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 19:35

So is it OK for a girl who has come out as a lesbian to be a girl guide and go on residential trips? Of course it bloody is! So what's the issue with a trans person?

Apples with orange.

A lesbian is still a woman.

However a tran woman is a man who wants to be/identifies as a woman.

See the difference?

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 19:37

Misleading title as they are not actaullt letting boys in are they, they ase letting transgender children who believe themselves to be gir!s join.

Trans girls are boys.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 19:40

Everyone who comes on these threads to shout "transphobia!" at us never actually direct us to posts or quotes where this alleged trans phobia has occurred.

Funny that.

GirlScout72 · 22/01/2017 19:41

Almost all paedophiles are male, women commit 2% of sexual crime, and in the case of child sex crime, women almost never ever commit crimes against children in their own right, they usually cover up a crime for a man, act as accomplice to a man (say Myra Hindley) or facilitate these kind of crimes for a man.

Also little girls are 5x more likely to be targeted by a paedophile as a little boy.

Gender ID is law in the states and Canada and there's been a huge spike in crimes against women. I was reading one today where a trans woman (who basically looked like a bloke but said he was a woman) did become a guide leader, he passed the background checks, but was caught out for some pretty horrible sexual crimes against girls.

In the UK where we have sex segregation, 90% of all sexual crime is by someone we know. In India, where they don't have sex segregation, 97% of all sexual crime is opportunist. Paedophiles will go to extraordinary lengths to get unfettered access to children (inc train as a teacher or a priest for instance).

As for the OP, she's talking about SELF IDENTIFICATION of Gender, which is not the same as Transsexualism (which under law in the UK requires a certificate still). The guides have shifted to a policy of Self ID for both members and leaders, despite it not being law in the UK.

This means any man who SAYS he 'feels' like a woman, is a woman, and need provide no evidence of transition. Under safeguarding, he'd be a woman. Parents are not informed if said man as woman goes on a residential with their child.

The Guides are mistaken about the LAW. 'Gender Reassignment' is protected, the current system, whereby a transsexual needs a certificate. 'Sex' is also protected and is the foundation of all women and girls' current legal protection.

Maria Miller (Women and Equalities committee review on transgender) is recommending we throw out 'sex' and replace it with 'gender identity' but it's not law yet. If this comes to pass, it will mean, in effect, that women and girls will be OUTLAWED from gathering anywhere - sports, education, health, intimate care, the WI, toilets, changing rooms, politics, ANYWHERE - as a single SEX.

As 'woman' will come to mean a 'thought' or a 'feeling' any man can have, rather than being a biological reality. This is already happening in women's international sport, as per the IOC new guidelines. It will also mean crimes will be recorded as being committed by a 'woman' if the person who committed it 'identifies' as a woman.

If gender identity becomes LAW it will mean opportunistic men will have unfettered access to women and girls' spaces because he SAYS he's a woman. There will be NO requirement to present any evidence of transition, or anything else. Indeed no requirement to even dress as a woman, let alone 'live as a woman' (whatever that means, watching box sets of Sex and the City and painting your nails or something??)

Essentially the Guides have erased 'girl' as having anything to do with female biology. And if you read the dysphoria criteria for kids, it reads like a 1950s housewife's manual of gender stereotypes. With many gay kids being transed straight by conservative parents. The whole thing is a dog's breakfast.

Being a girl is not a 'feeling deep down inside' it's a biological and material reality. Just ask Malala Yusef, she was not shot in the head because she 'felt' like a girl, but because she WAS a girl. No amount of wishing or wanting would have changed it. There's no escape from male on female oppression, you can't identify out of it.

Where ever you see the words 'gender identity' churned out by trans activists, just replace it with the word 'personality' and suddenly you'll see this notion that you can choose your sex as the lunacy it is.

Being a girl is just biology, that's the beginning and end of it, we should not be teaching girls that there are inherently natural characteristics that go with girlhood, a girl can be anything - in terms of likes, dislikes, hobbies, hair length, interests, capabilities, emotions. And we should not be telling 'effeminate' boys they are girls!

And girls should have space and time away from boys and the male gaze to develop and build their confidence.

And if you've been following the women's march, you'll see that trans activists are protesting the fact that women talked about women's bodies and women's biology (and all the crap things that happen to women because of them, abortion access, rape, prostitution, terrible maternity care etc) - female biology is transphobia apparently.

People need to wake up to the fact that the trans lobby is deeply misogynistic, and we should be protecting girls from a movement that even wants to take away the words they need to talk about their lives and their bodies.

NappiesNappies · 22/01/2017 19:41

I agree Charlie that there is ignorance about how all-encompassing the trans movement is now, far more than the distressed people we're used to considering. THe aggression and nastiness towards women from trans activists is just appalling. But it's hard to convey that, too, to the average AIBU mum poster. You just sound like you are engaging in hyperbole.

I think the point about male privilege is an important one, but I think it is not an effective argument here, because the obvious comeback, as we've seen countless times through these threads, is it's just one transgirl, the poor thing, it'll be so rare across the country, you're a bigot etc etc.

That's why I think we really need to focus on the systemic problem and how these children are being damaged.

titchy · 22/01/2017 19:42

Don't forget that GG is anti trans too - a female guide questioning their gender identity (and lots of girls do) is NO LONGER welcome.

Trans boys seem to be forgotten about in everyone's arguments.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 19:42

No that is not it, circumstances should be taken into consideration. But girls should not automatically start from the position of having special circumstances that need to be taken into consideration. That way of thinking is the complete opposite of feminism. Telling girls from birth that they automatically need special help because they are girls and need a safe space to be protected from all people with penis's because all rapists are men, is just nuts.

You have a very idealistic view of the world Suppermummy02.

GirlScout72 · 22/01/2017 19:44

This is quite a good summary of the case against gender self identification by a coalition of parents, doctors and specialists pushing back against the current trans / gender ideology www.transgendertrend.com/submission-to-women-and-equalities-committee-inquiry-into-implementation-of-sdg5/

titchy · 22/01/2017 19:46

Hear hear nappies and girlscout 👏

OopsDearyMe · 22/01/2017 19:47

So if you had a double mastectomy and hysterectomy suddenly you are a man are you???
How ridiculous!
What I am saying is that jumping to sexual abuse from allowing trans children live as they should is nuts.

Girls scout love to know your sources! Have you read much about the widespread sexual abuse by nuns in catholic homes??

My issue is why we are suggesting being trans means you are a paedophile, or that suddenly boys and girls should not be allowed to be around each other , just in case!!! Its crazy.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 19:48

Brilliant post GirlScout.

GirlScout72 · 22/01/2017 19:49

itchy, the Guides are anti girl, any girl who says she doesn't have a 'gender identity' as female, but just knows she's biologically female and the rest is bollocks (ie her parents have taught that gender stereotypes are NOT REAL and not based in any fact) would also not be welcome in the guides.

Personally I find it offensive as a woman that someone who I am is reduced down to a thought or a feeling a man can have. I don't 'identify' as a woman, I AM a bloody woman.

I don't walk around feeling like a woman, no idea what that feels like, well perhaps when I have period pain, or some bloke harrasses me on the bus, but other than that, sitting here writing this, driving my car, boiling an egg, whatever, I just feel like a PERSON with a PERSONALITY.

So any girl who say to the guides 'I don't 'identify' as female, cos I just AM female' ain't welcome either.

It's completely offensive, reductionist, backward, regressive, misogynistic bollocks if you ask me.

OopsDearyMe · 22/01/2017 19:50

Gscout your name is ironic in and of itself after all scouting has allowed all genders for a long time, with no apparent increase in sexual abuse!

I think the issue has nothing to do with sexual abuse its simply because many think trans people are being something false and that makes people uncomfortable. If you understand the science behind what makes all of us male or female, its less difficult to understand that living as their born gender is false your actually getting to see the real person.

Bettersleepoutdoors · 22/01/2017 19:52

Girlscout72 hear hear

OopsDearyMe · 22/01/2017 19:53

If that's the case, then why would you take issue with anyone male or female joining guides. Considering the downward trend of guiding I would say we need to open our doors wider.

GirlScout72 · 22/01/2017 19:54

Scout is named after Scout Finch in to Kill a Mockingbird, if you'd read that book you'd understand my point!

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 19:56

My issue is why we are suggesting being trans means you are a paedophile

Once again nobody has said that. Please direct me to the post where anyone has said that all trans people are pedophiles. I guarantee you that you won't find any.

People have said that sexual predators may use the current thinking which is being pushed by trans activists that self identification is all you need to become a woman to their advantage in order to access female only spaces. This is actually already happening in the States and Canada so it's not us being "hysterical".

That is not the same thing as being trans makes you a pedophile or sexual predator. Not at all.

Personally I think it's hilarious that so many trans activists accuse us of being hysterical and seeing things that aren't there whilst at the same time seeing hysteria and things that aren't there themselves. Irony overload.

CharlieSierra · 22/01/2017 19:57

Great post GirlScout