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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Furious: Girl Guides now admitting boys

506 replies

shinynewusername · 22/01/2017 10:06

Sorry for DM link but this is important. Brownies and Guides are going to admit boys if they identify as girls. Girls will have to share 'single sex' facilities including tents & changing rooms with them. Parents won't be told. Oh, and men who identify as women can become Brownie & Guide leaders, where they will get to supervise girls in those tents, changing rooms etc.

How is this possible? There is an epidemic of sexual abuse. We are still in the fall-out of Rotherham, Saville etc yet we are enabling men to have access to every safe space for girls. AIBU?

OP posts:
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Gallavich · 22/01/2017 17:48

crips
The vast majority of people are xx or xy with corresponding male or female genitalia, bone structure etc etc. Being male or female is fairly easy to determine and yes, it is a binary, with a small number of anomalies that cross over.

Sex isn't something that you identify as. It just isn't. Saying that I have no right to determine the sex that someone identifies as when they are 6'3, broad shouldered, bearded and waving a penis at me is fucking insane, gaslighting bullshit.

Ouriana · 22/01/2017 17:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CripsSandwiches · 22/01/2017 17:49

The article dealt with the non binary nature of sex determination - as many posters have claimed the determination of gender is determined by the presents or otherwise of a penis.

There have been observed brain differences in the brain structure of those that identify as trans with "female" brain structure observed in male-female transgendered individuals.

titchy · 22/01/2017 17:50

19% of trans gender individuals have been subject to violence as a result of their status

Remove sex workers from the stats and you'll fine the incidence of violence to trans individuals is much lower than that to females.

Bettersleepoutdoors · 22/01/2017 17:51

Fewer than 19% of females ar subjected to violence because of their status
Fuck off

CharlieSierra · 22/01/2017 17:51

CharlieSierra

Far fewer than that - and what's your point

Quite clearly my point is that the % of women experiencing violence and discrimination is far higher than that. Do you do any reading?

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 17:54

There have been observed brain differences in the brain structure of those that identify as trans with "female" brain structure

But there is no evidence that male and female brains differ. So how can there be a "female brain structure"?

CripsSandwiches · 22/01/2017 17:54

Ouriana

Good point.

Gallavich · 22/01/2017 17:54

as many posters have claimed the determination of gender is determined by the presents or otherwise of a penis

Fucking sigh

The determination of sex is determined by the presence of a penis or a vulva

Gender identity is an entirely different matter

People with penises are male and identifying as women or girls doesn't make them any less male.

Feeling transgender isn't the same as being intersex.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 17:54

I do find it interesting crips that you ignored the studies I posted which conclude that there is no difference between male and female brains.

Gallavich · 22/01/2017 17:56

crips hasn't even grasped the concepts under discussion as they seem to be discussing intersex people and assume that when people refer to gender they mean sex

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 17:57

Or if there are differences then they often overlap between men and women...

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 17:58

Then again I'm not sure I can take the opinion of someone who thinks intersex and transgender are the same thing judging by the fact they appear to be using them interchangeably...

ChuffChu · 22/01/2017 17:59

Yup.

I'm calling up to remove DD's name from our local waiting list tomorrow.

Bettersleepoutdoors · 22/01/2017 18:01

Sorry charlie it was my mistake.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 22/01/2017 18:02

Another study which sheds doubt on the whole male and female brain thing www.wired.co.uk/article/male-female-brain-difference-not-significant

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 22/01/2017 18:08

Some of these replies are just ignorant and nasty. Genuine question - you people obviously haven't bothered doing any research on the subject so why come here with your pearls clutched.

I don't have to research it, I'm living it.

Some of the people on this thread, the people who you have claimed haven't researched anything, have listened to, helped me through, understood, sympathised and given me practical advice about helping my child.

They are more than willing to listen to calm and rational viewpoints, understand where people are coming from even if it is an opposing view to theirs.

A lot of the people here are more than willing to listen to the experiences of trans people and stand with them as they fight for their spaces and safety.

Shouting people down and telling them they are transphobic doesn't get anyone anywhere. It shuts down discussion and pisses people off.

Shouting transphobia where there is none helps nobody, especially transgender people.

Ouriana · 22/01/2017 18:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CharlieSierra · 22/01/2017 18:14

Fish thank you again for being willing to share your experience to help educate the ignorant. Flowers

MercyMyJewels · 22/01/2017 18:40

Thanks from me too. But you seem to be a bit of a thread stopper fish Grin

Those who scream transphobe seem to melt away when presented with reality

Flowers
Suppermummy02 · 22/01/2017 18:49

everyone should be treated equally and protected equally, in other words treating everyone the same no matter what their circumstances Confused

No that is not it, circumstances should be taken into consideration. But girls should not automatically start from the position of having special circumstances that need to be taken into consideration. That way of thinking is the complete opposite of feminism.

Telling girls from birth that they automatically need special help because they are girls and need a safe space to be protected from all people with penis's because all rapists are men, is just nuts.

worridmum · 22/01/2017 19:02

A lot of the transpohipa expressed is in the same vein as the early 20th century that argued that homosexaulity was a mental condistion and the science of biology says that it was a mutation (aka purpose of life is to replucate homosexual couples cannot reproduce without help from member of oppistute gender).

While the study of trans brain patterns have not been studied in as much detail as that of homsexuals.

Sex is the biological asspect and gender is the cultural aspect.

Strictly speaking in terms of scientific study homosexuality is in the same vein as trans as in there thought processes are different to that of the biological norm, but as socity has nearly univerusal accepted homosexuality it is sadly lacking in acceptance of trans people.

The same sort of augruements were being sprouted in 19 and 20 th centerutys saying they were born male / female they should only fancy have releasntionships with oppiste sex.

Hopefully sooner rather then later people will accept people for whom they are be in non- trans or trans like how its widely accepted homosexaulity despite the old arguments that its against biology etc.

NappiesNappies · 22/01/2017 19:04

I haven't read the most recent comments here, but I've read the first ten pages. I have been following the debate on trans issues here, and the Girl Guides threads.

The Spartacus women have been admirably clear and articulate in carefully, patiently making their point over the last year or so. I have learned a lot from them about how to communicate.

However (and forgive me if this point has been made in the last few pages), I do think that they have not approached this issue in the best way to sway the minds of new readers.

It is difficult to talk of issues such as these that involve individual, vulnerable children who are going through terrible mental turmoil. Obviously you are going to get people reasonably pointing out that these children need our sympathy and it is over the top to reject them from Girl Guides. There have been insinuations about how they might behave badly, which have a very small likelihood of happening (as the poster who discussed her DSD's groper classmate transitioning then getting access to girls' spaces). There are instances such as Lila Perry with the visible penis through the skirt complaining vociferously to the media about prejudice when it's pretty clear that Lila enjoys intimidating the girls in their spaces.

However it is easy for posters to dismiss these instances as terribly unlikely. Particularly in a controlled Girl Guide environment.

I think it would be better to approach the argument by talking about this not as the individual effect on our girls who may encounter a trans child, which is alienating to some as transphobic, particularly for those not up to date with the new anti-biology self-identity ideology.

The argument should be that this move by GG is part of a systemic problem where overwhelmingly likely gay children are being funnelled towards a life as trans people. They are being sold a myth that they will be happy if they change sex. They are having the effects of lifelong medication and surgery minimised. Their parents are being lied to about suicide risks to force them down the path.

Not one mainstream, public trans proponents seem to be saying they might be gay or lesbians. It seems to be forbidden.

The other problem, combined with this, is the regressive notions of gender, which is actually a set of stereotypes. I have read many articles about trans children, and accounts online by trans people of their childhood. I'm afraid that ALL OF THEM mention the preference for dolls/Barbies/pink or pirates/trucks/getting dirty that the child showed. I'm trying, trying to find one where the child's identity doesn't rest on their toys. Of course, it is said that there are other factors but the toys are always the main thing.

To me this reinforces the problem that children are being pigeon holed by the trans lobby by damaging stereotypes, particularly where they might be ordinary gay or lesbian children.

For parents like Fish who describe their child as not adhering to gender stereotypes and preferences, where there is genuine body dysmorphia, these parents keep their heads down. They don't want to use their child as cheap publicity.

And of course there are so many women posters on here who say that they'dhave been transed as children because they preferred the stereotyped boys' toys and activities. How heartbreaking that the next generation of these clever, thoughtful mothers are being sterilised.

So the real issue is that this move by an organisation that proudly rejected stereotypes about girls, now wholeheartedly accepts these stereotypes. This makes it harder to oppose the transing of children. Of gay children and children whose personalities lead them to prefer the other sex's stereotype of toys.

Trans ideology is homophobic and it's sexist.

NappiesNappies · 22/01/2017 19:09

Sorry for clumsy expression, typing with a struggling, teething baby in my arms.

OopsDearyMe · 22/01/2017 19:19

Misleading title as they are not actaullt letting boys in are they, they ase letting transgender children who believe themselves to be gir!s join. Why would this suddenly mean sexual abuse ???

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