Furious: Girl Guides now admitting boys

[shinynewusername]

Sorry for DM link but this is important. Brownies and Guides are going to admit boys if they identify as girls. Girls will have to share 'single sex' facilities including tents & changing rooms with them. Parents won't be told. Oh, and men who identify as women can become Brownie & Guide leaders, where they will get to supervise girls in those tents, changing rooms etc.

How is this possible? There is an epidemic of sexual abuse. We are still in the fall-out of Rotherham, Saville etc yet we are enabling men to have access to every safe space for girls. AIBU?

It's all a storm in a teacup really.

Of all the 10-14 children in the UK, how many are trans girls?

How many of those who are would want to join Guides?

Of those who do, how many would want to go away on residentials and be potentially exposed to being seen as other?

If you had a trans girl in your unit then probably everyone would know anyway as the children will be friends outside of Guides. Probably the girls, the parents and the leaders would work together to ensure a safe and inclusive experience for everyone. That's what would happen in my unit.

Guiding just has to have a policy document covering as many eventualites as possible.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there better but of course it wouldn't be okay. You can't "identify as having a disability".

Poster in what way does equality of outcome lead to matriarchy instead of patriarchy? What is it about the word equality which you don't get? What part of the image leads you to see advantage?

I do find it odd though that people are so anti trans. Just as they were anti gay in the 70s and 80s.

It's a scientifically determined fact that people identify as a sex which differs from their genitalia. We're even getting closer to determining the epigenetics that can cause it and the utero environment that results in that epigenetic make up. It happens in a tiny minority of people. Those people are the most discriminated against in society - highest suicide rate, highest rate of dropping out of education etc etc and still people find a reason to make hateful comments against them.

Exactly

The scientifically observed fact is that gender identity results from a complicated manifestation of hormones the impact of which isn't purely determined by the chromosomes you possess but by epigenetic that are determined in utero can you link to the studies?

I do find it odd though that people are so anti trans.

Oh look another poster shouting "transphobia!" without citing any specific examples of this trans phobia.

So Crips could you please cite the anti trans posts on this thread? Perhaps if you actually told us what it is you had a problem with then we might be more inclined to try and understand where you're coming from.

It's a scientifically determined fact that people identify as a sex which differs from their genitalia.

Given that it has been scientifically proven that there are no differences between male and female brains then how exactly has it been "scientifically determined" that people can identify as a different sex to what their genitalia state? Or are you making the common error that sex and gender are the same thing and you're using them interchangeably?

still people find a reason to make hateful comments against them.

Again with the trans phobia accusations

However please feel free to direct me to all these so called hateful comments against trans people on this thread. Go on. I dare you.

Here's a good review - most of the studies I've read require journal access so I'd have to get them at work.

www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

But what if they "identified as having a disability"
Surely that would be ok? are you actually fucking serious? So someone who genuinely has a disability has adjustments, and someone else who doesn't have a disability but 'identifies' as disabled should get the same adjustments? So my DD who had extra time in her exams, but someone else without her disadvantages but 'identified' as such should have the same? Or someone 'identifying as disabled' at work would have equal dibs on the accessible loo as a wheelchair user? How about the wheelchair lift in an evacuation scenario? Equal rights to that?

Mumsnet reallly needs a sub forum for these threads.

Again with the trans phobia accusations

A poster earlier in the thread said that boys identifying as girls should stop. That is trans phobia in as much as saying that men sleeping with men should stop is homophobia.

19% of trans gender individuals have been subject to violence as a result of their status. So you can't possibly claim trans phobia doesn't exist. I'm not sure why you're even attempting to make such a ridiculous point.

Some of these replies are just ignorant and nasty. Genuine question - you people obviously haven't bothered doing any research on the subject so why come here with your pearls clutched

I have spent months and month reading literature around this issue, both peer reviewed research and people's stories. So have many of the women on this thread.

The scientifically observed fact is that gender identity results from a complicated manifestation of hormones the impact of which isn't purely determined by the chromosomes you possess but by epigenetic that are determined in utero. These comments are just plain ignorant and ill informed

Really? I'd love to see the research that indicates that any of that is fact. Actually nobody knows for sure what causes gender dysphoria. People who identity as trans have sex hormone levels within the same range as the majority of people of their sex. Hormone washes in utero are a discredited theory.
If there was observable and testable evidence for being trans we wouldn't be in this absolute mess that we are.

Maybe scientifically proven isn't quite true so I take that bit back .

However there have been quite a few studies that show that there is no difference between male and female brains.

mentalfloss.com/article/71811/there-no-difference-between-male-and-female-brains-study-finds

www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/

19% of trans gender individuals have been subject to violence as a result of their status
Do you know what % of women are subjected to violence and discrimination due to their status?

CharlieSierra

Far fewer than that - and what's your point?

Crips you appear to have linked to an article about intersex conditions. Did you mean to do that or was it an error? I'm sure you are aware that transgender people are not intersex and intersex people are not transgender!

CharlieSierra I am sorry. have obviously been unclear about my view.
I simply cannot accept that it is ok to accept a person with a penis to be female, any more than someone who can hear needs a hearing aid.

Gallavich

What you say is simply untrue. I have never seen a peer reviewed article which was in support of binary sex. See here for example: www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

When genetics is taken into consideration, the boundary between the sexes becomes even blurrier. Scientists have identified many of the genes involved in the main forms of DSD, and have uncovered variations in these genes that have subtle effects on a person's anatomical or physiological sex. What's more, new technologies in DNA sequencing and cell biology are revealing that almost everyone is, to varying degrees, a patchwork of genetically distinct cells, some with a sex that might not match that of the rest of their body. Some studies even suggest that the sex of each cell drives its behaviour, through a complicated network of molecular interactions. “I think there's much greater diversity within male or female, and there is certainly an area of overlap where some people can't easily define themselves within the binary structure,” says John Achermann, who studies sex development and endocrinology at University College London's Institute of Child Health.

These discoveries have pointed to a complex process of sex determination, in which the identity of the gonad emerges from a contest between two opposing networks of gene activity. Changes in the activity or amounts of molecules (such as WNT4) in the networks can tip the balance towards or away from the sex seemingly spelled out by the chromosomes.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there better but of course it wouldn't be okay. You can't "identify as having a disability"

There is a very small but definitely existing 'trans abled' community. People who deliberately cripple themselves because they 'identify as blind' or similar, or people who use walking aids or wheelchairs when they have no need of them.

Once again crips that article is about intersex conditions, not transgenderism. Do you understand the difference?

Bettersleepoutdoors

Why would you say that? There is no scientific basis for a binary definition of sex. Why would you even feel you have a right to determine the sex with which someone else identifies?

If transwomen are the same as women due to female hormones why do they have to replace their male hormones with female ones? Why have cross sex hormones at all?

However it wouldn't surprise me if there was a difference in brain structure. (Although people tried to find the same for blacks and gays). There is a significantly higher prevalence of people with autism among those with gender dysphoria.

But a difference to non trans, neuro typical people does not mean they are women. How can it? Chromosomes determine hormones which lead to sex characteristics.

Men "sleeping with" (can I assume you mean having sex with) does not impinge on the privacy and protection of anyone. It is simply a preference or orientation. It really is nobody else's business and it redefines nothing.
A boy or man claiming to be female does redefine "female" and it affects the privacy and status of women and girls.
Feeling " feminine" or dressing in " feminine" attire is not the same as claiming to be and demanding to be treated as female.

Better I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I cannot accept a person with a penis as female either.

So you can't possibly claim trans phobia doesn't exist

Not once did I claim trans phobia doesn't exist. I was talking specifically about these threads where people are so keen to jump in and accuse us all of being trans phobic but failing to actually point out any trans phobia. Speaking of which....

A poster earlier in the thread said that boys identifying as girls should stop.

I can't find such a poster however from the wording it sounds like they're referring to the current thinking of trans activists which is that anyone can say they identify as the opposite sex and that's all there is to it.

It has nothing to do with genuine trans people (whom I have every sympathy for) and instead is a criticism of the current trans activism for self identification.

as much as saying that men sleeping with men should stop is homophobia.

You can't compare being trans with being gay because of reasons already discussed. It's a terrible analogy.

19% of trans gender individuals have been subject to violence as a result of their status.

And I wonder who the perpetrator of that violence is in most cases? Let's think about this for a second now...