This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.



With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.



You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.



I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

[SilentlyScreamingAgain]

I think that the lesbian comparison is reasonable, these threads do always allude to some vague, unspecified sexual threat. It's exactly the same thing that, although more in the past, is still thrown at lesbians.

[fatowl]

Guide leader here
I'm not especially knowable about trans issues, but Girlguiding is an open , accepting organisation, which is what I like about it.

I am, however, knowledgeable about Child Protection due to my job in addition to Girlguiding. Girlguiding's Safeguarding Policy and practices protect girls from abuse within Guiding and will support girls who experience abuse outside the organisation.

However please can I say this (a minor thing) - Please stop refering to the leaders as "staff". Staff are paid, we are not.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

AChickenCalledKorma

Why are all these girls confused? Could you not, as their parent, teach them about transmen and transwomen? Surely if they're old enough to be uncomfortable or confused they're old enough to learn?

[charlestonchaplin]

I don't disagree Korma, but I believe the majority of Transgirls would be trying to fit in, appearance-wise, so I don't think appearance is so much the issue, especially when puberty-blockers and other treatments are being used. But being a girl isn't all about the physical appearance. Knowledge that there are Transgirls in a unit may prove a barrier in itself.

[OlennasWimple]

Titchy - the thread is about leaders, not girl guides.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

harderandharder2breathe - I didn't think so, but it's 30+ years since I was a Guide! I was guessing at a "worst case scenario" I think.

[harderandharder2breathe]

Oh and I'm a lesbian and none of my girls or their parents know (it's not secret but it's not something that needs to be shared. If they had seen me with my ex gf I wouldn't have stopped holding her hand or hidden round corners). I can definitely confirm I'm attracted to adult women my own age (early thirties) and not girls. My behaviour around and to the girls is appropriate and no different to any other leader.

[AChickenCalledKorma]

milktwosugars yiucare right that the extract quoted by the OP is about adult leaders, but the Girlguiding website also makes it clear that the same principles apply to youth members. So yes, we are also talking about teenagers and pre teens sharing rooms and changing in front of each other.

[MissSlighcarp]

'But they won't be changing in front of boys confused. This is about Guide Leaders. At most they'll be changing in front of a transwoman."

But a transwoman is a male! And if girls feel uncomfortable about that, you are telling them they need to learn to get over their discomfort. Which flies directly in the face of everything we are teaching the about learning to trust their own intuitions in order to stay safe.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Milk, the policy is also about allowing transboys to join but not be separated unless they request. The girls get no say in that.

If the girls follow their mothers' leads I think the transboys would be asking to be separated pretty quickly

[Datun]

The problem about basing this on gender, means that if a girl decides that she wants to be a trans-boy, she will be excluded. On the basis of her gender. They can't say it's on the basis of gender just for boys who think they are girls, but on the basis of sexfor girls who think they are boys.

So is everybody happy about girls being excluded because they are gender nonconforming, but not boys? It's hardly inclusive, if it's going to not allow girls in there any more.

And it's not just about the leaders, it's about the children too. The trans-inclusiveness includes the children as well as the leaders.

[Bibblewanda]

Transwomen aren't women. They are men. Men should not be girl guide leaders nor girl guides. Pretty simple really.

I am happy to be completely wrong about that if anyone would like to point out exactly what it is about being a woman TW identify with, but thus far no one has.

[harderandharder2breathe]

Misssligh as I said at least twice already girls do not change in front of leaders

[crafT1]

Girlguiding do not permit an adult on their own to share sleeping accommodation with the girls. It is allowed for adults and girls to share the same room so long as there are at least 2 adults and 2 girls. On sleepovers we all sleep in the same room, most residential venues have separate rooms for leaders. Males can attend a residential event but must have separate sleeping and bathroom facilities.

[BertrandRussell]

Guide and Scout. leaders never share sleeping accommodation , changing rooms or bathrooms with the young people.

[glenthebattleostrich]

I am a concerned parent. I'm concerned about my daughter growing up in a world where women are being erased by a small minority of bepenised people. I'm concerned about my daughter growing up in a world where science and biology doesn't mean anything. I'm concerned about the obsession with gender. I don't give a fuck if Dave feels like Davina and wants to wear a dress. Good luck to Dave. But that does not make Dave a woman. Being born with XX chromosomes makes a woman. You can't change that.

And before the transphobe bollocks is trotted out I don't believe that Dave (or anyone) should be discriminated against because of how they present to the world etc etc. But they should not get to take over women's hard fought for spaces. I'll support gender neutral spaces (I think gender is bullshit anyway) but women (and men) are allowed their own space too.

[BarbaraofSeville]

Why do you think boys and girls change for pe in separate changing rooms? Would you be happy for them to be mixed? Why not

^^This. There was a long thread not so long about all the women who had grown up in the 70/80/90s almost unaminously utterly traumatised by having to change and shower in front of other girls after PE at school.

And now people are saying that they should accept being joined by boys who identify as girls in changing rooms/showers/dormitories, otherwise it is transphobic?

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

MissSlighcarp

Yes, they do need to learn to get over their discomfort tbh. Just like women were told to get over their discomfort at sharing with lesbians and men were told to get over their discomfort at sharing with homosexuals.

[AChickenCalledKorma]

milktwosugars yes, I can teach them. But things are moving very fast into territory that lots of people are very confused about. My point is simply that the guidelines should ensure that leaders take account of whether all members of a dorm/tent are comfortable with sleeping arrangements, not just the member who is trans. That would include girls whose parents have never come across this situation and haven't realised they need to talk to their kids about it. I guarantee there are plenty of those.

[Bibblewanda]

No milk because sexuality and transgenderism aren't remotely comparable.

[crafT1]

If a girl decides her identity is a boy then she won't be immediately excluded, but helped to find what is appropriate for her. A girl deciding to become a trans boy won't want to attend a girl's organisation anyhow so would probably feel it wasn't the right place for her & her leaders should support her to finding out about organisations that offer activities for boys, such as scouts.

[allchattedout]

I think that the lesbian comparison is reasonable, these threads do always allude to some vague, unspecified sexual threat. It's exactly the same thing that, although more in the past, is still thrown at lesbians

No, it is not comparable. There is a safety reason why certain spaces are segregated according to biological sex. Lesbian women do not pose a threat to female children any more than a heterosexual woman would. It's just that they happen to have relationships with (adult) women rather than men. It would be different if the lesbian woman in question was also a pedophile. But then it's the pedophilia that is the issue, not her sexual orientation.

[charlestonchaplin]

Transboys are female. Are some people getting confused? There is no need to segregate them as far as sleeping or changing facilities, provided no hormone treatments are being taken, though I do anticipate other issues.

[glenthebattleostrich]

Thanks for that milk. I'll tell my lesbian friend who has been assaulted for refusing to sleep with a trans person (on account of her not being I to penises)

Women don't need to accept anything. Men need to accept that they don't get to define what a woman is.