This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.



With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.



You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.



I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

[AndNoneForGretchenWieners]

I see no difference here to a lesbian being a Guide or a leader. They are, rightly so, fully accepted and trans people should also be. Like a PP said, they aren't going to go through the life changing and extremely difficult process of living as a woman just to see a Brownie in their pants.

Children don't tend to judge these sorts of differences in the same way as adults unless the adults they are living with are extremely vocal in their views - if their attention hasn't been drawn to it, they will just see another child who maybe used to identify as a boy but is now identifying as a girl. Acceptance comes more easily for children. It tends to be parents' insecurities and prejudice that shapes how a child will react to someone else, be they of a different colour, religion, sexuality or transgender.

I don't think men and boys suddenly think "I know how to oppress girls and women, I'll put on a frock and join the Guides".

[harderandharder2breathe]

Oh ffs we just had this thread and it was horrible and trans phobic as this is shaping up to be

IF any of you knew anything about girl Guiding you'd know leaders don't share rooms with the girls. Men can already be unit helpers and come on residential trips.

[SundialShadow]

This is the Daily Fail trying to drum up outrage for its toss rag.

[Bibblewanda]

I see no difference here to a lesbian being a Guide or a leader

Er. What?

[averylongtimeago]

Guide leader here - can I confirm that adults and girls absolutely do not share sleeping accommodation either at camp or on indoor residential. We do not share toilets or showers either.

As for the other issue, about trans girls and women joining, I need to think about that more.

[picklemepopcorn]

The thing is, child protection standards are very clearly about putting barriers in place to prevent predators accessing children. If those barriers are not in place, your organisation starts looking attractive to predators.

I'm torn. I feel that this reduces the barriers. But actually it doesn't, because child protection procedures are in place regardless of the identity of the adults. Male predators also abuse boys, but are not prevented from being leaders in scout groups.

There seems to be an expectation that there is no period of adjustment needed anymore. That the moment a man says he is a woman then he is.

It is worrying, given that predators will use this as a way to circumvent the barriers put in place to prevent them abusing.

[charlestonchaplin]

I know it's an old argument, but it's still true: Transgirls may be happy to be fully integrated with girls, but it seems no-one is asking what the girls are comfortable with. This is the problem when trans-rights collide with other people's rights. There is often no consideration for the feelings and concerns of others.

[AndNoneForGretchenWieners]

bibble what I mean is, twenty years ago, there would have been consternation and homophobic concerns about women who fancy other women being involved in looking after girls on residential trips. Attitudes have thankfully moved on and now people have realised that lesbian women fancy other women, not girls. So transwomen, just because they may have a penis, are no more likely to fancy the girls - they may fancy women or men - but the outrage about this issue is assuming every transwoman is a predator, in the same way that some people used to be suspicious of gay men and women.

[BarbarianMum]

Well maybe don't send your dd to guides. You could set up a youth group who only admits people who are biologically female instead. Simple

[allchattedout]

I see no difference here to a lesbian being a Guide or a leader

Excuse me, but do you mind explaining how/why precisely you think that?

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

charlestonchaplin

Why would the girls be uncomfortable with it? Other than adults (maybe subconsciously) suggesting that they should be?

[SausageFarmer]

It's bullshit.

If a man who claims to 'feel' like a woman starts with guides and joins in the women stuff, caring for my child. HE will have a shock!

Sexual abuse/assault is going to be on the rise if this bullshit carried on xx

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

which now leaves them missing out on an experience because of males.

No - they are missing out because you think transwomen are sexual predators.

[user1484558614]

Hi , They dont at my childrens school or in the Scouts group which is mixed. Im not sure they should .

[AChickenCalledKorma]

charletonchaplin girls who have reached puberty may well feel uncomfortable and confused about sharing a room with someone that identifies as female but looks male. It's a pretty confusing area for lots of people and Girlguiding includes older teenagers who will be pretty clear that they are not usually encouraged to share a bedroom with a man.

Within a unit, the participants would all know each other pretty well and may be fully comfortable with the trans girl's female identity. But what about events where units get together and share dorms/tents with guides they haven't met before? I certainly went to a few events like that when i was a teenage guide. It seems common sense that all those who will share a room should be comfortable with it.

[charlestonchaplin]

Gretchen We are talking about girl guides, not 5 year olds. It must be quite challenging to have a new girl in your midst who was a boy last week or month. I remember being that age, and some of the nasty boys I was at boarding school with. If one of them then identified as a girl, I wouldn't suddenly be looking at them with new eyes. I'd still have seen a boy. A boy with issues, but a boy nevertheless. The group dynamic would change immediately and permanently. This is a problem for everyone.

I do have sympathy for people who have identity issues and I don't think many can ever be truly content with their situation, but I am strongly against the denial of scientific fact and the lack of concern for anyone else's feelings that characterise the trans agenda. And I do have some experience of body dysphoria. Thankfully I was never channelled down the trans route.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Ifitquackslikeaduck

No milk, they're missing out because they don't wish to change in front of boys.

But they won't be changing in front of boys . This is about Guide Leaders. At most they'll be changing in front of a transwoman.

[AChickenCalledKorma]

Oops - that comment was in response to milktwosugars - seems charletonchaplin and I are in agreement.

[harderandharder2breathe]

ifitquacks I don't stand there watching girls change. I bang on the door and tell them to stop dawdling, but I don't go in. Most Brownies are shy about their bodies and definitely by Guides they don't want to change in front of each other (much shuffling around in sleeping bags or more sensibly going to the toilets to change).

You are stopping your girls from having a great experience because you are crazy paranoid and transphobic. That has nothing to do with GG and it's policies.

[titchy]

Sarah has been a member of GG since the age of 5. She has ASD traits and always found it difficult to make friends, but the leaders worked with her and the rest of the group to fully integrate Sarah, and she now has friends.

Sarah found the transition to secondary difficult, and was largely ostracised by her peers as she was a bit 'odd'. Nevertheless the friends she had at Guides continued to accept her and she enjoyed the social interaction.

When she was 12 she began to question her sexuality and gender identity. At the age of 13 she decided she was a trans boy.

SHE HAD TO LEAVE GUIDES.

Does everyone think this is right or fair?

[harderandharder2breathe]

milktwo they won't be changing in front of any leader!