This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.



With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.



You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.



I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

[Bibblewanda]

Either stance is opinion rather than fact

No it isn't. It's not a "stance" that humans born with penises are male and humans born with vaginas are female, it's scientific fact.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Bibblewanda - I don't. Same as I don't know if any of the women are sexual predators or not.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer - no-one has specifically said that, I'd like to think no-one's stupid enough to say it out loud. However that is very much the undercurrent in this thread. I'd scroll back and pick some out, but I'm on my phone and I don't find it easy.

[Trifleorbust]

Bibblewanda: No. I think some of the posters here sound deeply irrational.

[corythatwas]

How likely is it that your individual child's leader is going to be:

a) trans at all?

b) someone who has gone to the trouble and risked the stigma of identifying as trans simply to have access to girls?

Is it really any more likely than finding a female leader who is a sexual predator?

When these threads started, I took them seriously and engaged in them as a genuine problem. Now I am beginning to feel it is all about building up malaise in the general population.

Yes, I can understand about general wider question: "when is a man a woman, when is a woman a man?" Yes, I can understand if we specifically happen to be discussing e.g. prison systems, because there are obvious problems there. But do we really have to go on and on inventing more and more scenarios to feel angry about?

Isn't this exactly what people did when the gay pride movement got going? Weren't there thousands of parents and educators seriously worried that not sending gays to prison would mean that men had untrammelled access to small boys in educational and leisure-based activities? And aren't there an awful lot more gays than trans people?

Why can't we feel reassured by actual safety measures taken- like the assurances on this thread from people actually in the Girl Guide movement? Someone seems very set on whipping up a moral panic here.

[Bibblewanda]

I don't. Same as I don't know if any of the women are sexual predators or not.

Statistically the chances of a man being a sexual predator are significantly, significantly higher. Again fact.

[Trifleorbust]

corythatwas: This is absolutely right. These threads aren't about child safety. They are about some bigoted women jealously guarding 'their' status as women and using arguments about children to lend respectability to their hatred.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Either stance is opinion rather than fact

No it isn't. It's not a "stance" that humans born with penises are male and humans born with vaginas are female, it's scientific fact.

Biological sex is not the same as gender.

[glenthebattleostrich]

We already have a definition of woman. Adult female with XX chromosomes. I'll stick to biological reality.

[Bibblewanda]

And I for one am sick of the comparisons between the gay rights movement and transgenderism. There is no basis for comparison. Sexuality is innate. Gender is a social construct. Homosexuals do not assert their rights by trampling over the rights and experiences of others. The transgender movement does.

[Bibblewanda]

No it isn't milk, but I believe gender is a harmful social construct and the transgender movement panders to it.

[corythatwas]

Bibblewanda Thu 19-Jan-17 09:49:48

"Statistically the chances of a man being a sexual predator are significantly, significantly higher. Again fact."

Yes but surely the statistics you would need to look into here, if we are making our minds up about sending our dd to Girl guides, are the statistical likelihood of any one Girl Guide group containing a leader who is both trans and a predator? And that, I should imagine, is rather small.

In the meantime, those of us who also have sons have to cope with the fact that they will be looked after by males and we have no means of knowing about their sexual propensities.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Bibblewanda

Statistically, how many women have committed sexual assault compared to transwomen? Taking in to account that young men in particular are highly unlikely to report.

I wonder how many transmen have for that matter.

[Bibblewanda]

Well milk as transwomen are men statistically they will still be in the higher bracket.

[Twistmeandturnme]

Adults and children don't share bedrooms etc on GG residential anyway.
Adults (over 16) staying overnight are all DBS checked.
I'm not sure why someone being trans would affect your DDs safety?

[ageingrunner]

Why are women and girls suddenly not allowed spaces without biological men and boys in? Why shouldn't we be allowed to choose to have time where there are only members of our own sex there? Surely that's reasonable?

[Sporadicus]

OP I find it incredibly sad that GG are now basing their definition of women and girls on sexist stereotypes. I only recently found out that they had dropped religion and was considering looking into it for my DD.

Even if there aren't trans members/leaders at our local GG, the fact that GG define girls this way for the convenience of males puts me off completely.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

No it isn't milk, but I believe gender is a harmful social construct and the transgender movement panders to it.

Does that mean you'd be happier for a man to say (for example)

"Yes I'm a man, but I believe gender is a harmful social construct so I should be free to pursue my traditionally female interests. I should be able to join the Girl Guides."

[Bibblewanda]

Yes, I would. Absolutely.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

Why are women and girls suddenly not allowed spaces without biological men and boys in? Why shouldn't we be allowed to choose to have time where there are only members of our own sex there? Surely that's reasonable?

,^^ this.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Bibblewanda

What's the difference?

[Charlie1775]

All adults must have separate sleeping arrangements to the girls, all DBS'ed and male helpers are allowed in girl guiding anyway.....plenty of dads pull their weight in girl guiding. If you actually take the time to take your child to girl guides you will meet all of your child's leaders and you won't need telling about a man being around because you will have used your eyes

[ageingrunner]

I always laugh at the idea that men won't bother putting a dress on in order to get easier access to women or girls. Lots of paedophiles base their whole career choice around being in contact with children! Ffs putting a dress on is a lot easier and quicker! What makes people think they won't do it?!
And no, I don't think all trans people are sexual predators, but it'd be extremely naive to think none are

[outabout]

Hi
As a Scout leader (and I presume for Guide leaders) there are long lists of rules regarding 'safeguarding' of the children including as mentioned previously having 2 adults present even if (and especially) if there is 1 child on it's own.
Due to some of the diverse activities they get up to this can present massive logistical problems which HAVE to be borne in mind.
A lot of thought has gone into the safeguarding issues and forms a significant part of training which is updated quite frequently.
You have to accept that there are both men and women and those 'transitioning' (sorry I don't know the correct PC terms) and all children have to learn to accept other peoples existence.
Digressing for a moment, at a Scout camp you have Scouts, girls and boys. You have young leaders (14 1/2 and older) and leaders (adults).
For sleeping arrangements the scouts can mix M+F if they are all happy with the arrangement. Young leaders must have their own tents and leaders their own. Individual scouts cannot sleep on their own and cannot share with leaders/young leaders unless they are sons/daughters of the leader.
Toilet and washing (What's that?) arrangements are ideally segregated 'scouts', male and female, and 'leaders' male and female. Sometimes there variances to this but if any parent is concerned they can discuss it.
Leaders and young leaders are 'trained' to look out for problems of inappropriate behaviour and there are strict guidelines. Of course problems can arise but that is life.
It is not unusual for scouts at camp to avoid getting changed for days, both boys and girls!
Tolerance and understanding is what is needed.