What daughter said happened

[hils1979]

First post, please be gentle!
My 5 yr old daughter has told me tonight that 6 boys in year 2 have twice (today and last Friday) cornered her in the playground, pulled her tights and knickers down, and looked and laughed at her girly bits.
This is the first I've heard of something like this and I'm shocked!!!
I know boys will be boys... but seriously?? Also she said she told 2 teachers and the head. But why hasn't anyone told us?
AIBU to think be the school should have contacted me and told me? Reassured me they were aware and dealing with it? Have they told the parents of the boys? Awkward as 3 are pretty good friends of mine.

If I see any more obvious comments like that one then sure, I will.

However if you want to engage in an intelligent debate to explain your position properly, great, let's see it!

hils1979

Go in and kick up a stink.

As a teacher I wouldn't rest until this was sorted.

As for those excusing the behaviour, I suspect that you have never been in a school where the information past down from the head is 'don't ever let a female member of staff be alone with X child'

Glad you spoke to the school!

Had your daughter already told two teachers and the head teacher? Your OP suggested she had but that they had done nothing-was that the case?

I've already responded to posts I disagree with.

OP, in your OP you said your DD had too the teachers and the head but it appears that she hadnt? Did she tell the playground supervisors? If so, and then they hadn't passed the information on then I would be very concerned. It's so obviously a serious incident I would be shocked if a playground supervisor had brushed it aside on two separate incidences let alone one.
In my kids schools the playground supervisors were always the teachers but I understand that might not be the case in all schools.

Hi op, I read your thread last night but didn't have time to reply. I am glad the school are taking your daughters complaint seriously, this type of incident in my experience is always upsetting/ shocking and as a result dealt with swiftly and firmly. It is so important for this kind of incident to be approached at a whole school level, this would be a great opportunity for discussions of the nspcc underwear rule for example. One school I taught at, there was an escalation of this situation, I will just say that there was more than just looking involved (older children 11/12) and this was a very distressing incident for everyone involved.

Often children who show overtly sexualized behaviour, have been the victim of abuse themselves and have a skewed perception of appropriate boundaries. So these situations require a great deal of sensitivity and understanding.

Slightly off topic, but I have recently read an article, which claimed children as young as seven are being exposed to pornography! Mostly due to a lack of supervision during use of electronic devices. There are seven year olds who are bought iPhone 5/6/7's/ iPads for Christmas, which they can then take outside when playing with friends. If children are viewing pornography then I can only see an increase in incidents like this happening. When the young mind is struggling to process situations that are beyond their comprehension, they resort to the method of learning that has carried them from babyhood onwards - play (roleplay). I want to stress that I am in no way suggesting that this is the case in the OP's situation. Nor am I using it as an excuse for this behaviour. I am just despairing at a world that leaves young children, open to exposure to materials that would shock many adults. The NSPCC has some fantastic information on protecting children from the darker side of the internet.

This link is fantastic for preventing children from being exposed to inappropriate content online (Perhaps not so relevant for you OP but hopefully someone reading will find it herlpful!)

www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/online-safety/parental-controls/

This following link lists the different types of abuse, there is a section on bullying and also harmful sexual behaviour - You could contact the nspcc helpline on 0808 800 5000 .They may be able to advise you on how to help your daughter to cope with her feelings surrounding both incidents. Alternatively they do have a plethora of information on their website.

www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-neglect/

These following links are meant for teachers but there are leaflets to download and the planning information might help with how to approach the subjects with children.

www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/underwear-rule/underwear-rule-schools-teaching-resources/

www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/share-aware/teaching-resources/

I have also linked several books which might help your daughter, perhaps your local library will have them?

www.amazon.co.uk/Your-Body-Belongs-Cornelia-Spelman/dp/0807594733/ref=pd_sim_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=FHKDK7ZK88HV00C2GP6H

www.amazon.co.uk/Said-Guide-Keeping-Private-Parts/dp/1878076493/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QGHKVGZW2CMYPRMP2HEV

www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/No-Means-Jayneen-Sanders/1925089223/ref=pd_cp_14_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=6DW119TSTMAENDC1A7CY

www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/My-Underpants-Rule-Rod-Power/0992953006/ref=pd_cp_14_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=5HA9ZK8AS5AW282G8B3K

I'm sorry your little girl has been treated this way, your daughter was very brave to tell you about these incidents and it shows the loving relationship you have with your daughter, that she felt able to confide in you! Hopefully now the school are dealing with this incident your daughter will feel safe again.

In our school the teachers are on duty at morning play time but at lunchtime midday supervisors are on duty, so that the teachers can run homework club, choir and other activities.

So, did your daughter tell two teachers and the head or not?

I don't remember a lot from the early years of primary school but I still remember being cornered by one boy who tried to pull my knickers and how helpless and awful I felt. I hope my DD trusts us enough to tell us should this ever happen but I hope it never will.
We had a problem with bullying and I was happy with how the school dealt with it. Should my DD experience an assault like this, I'd be going after it like a bloodhound. This goes above any level of mischief and boys will be boys and should be taken very seriously.

My son was once accused of doing something similar to a neighbours child. Naturally the mother was very angry, as was I. He flatly denied it.

Two weeks later I had the opportunity to ask her when he was there what had happened. Her story quickly unravelled and she told her mother 'well I thought he was going to'

I'm not saying it did or did not happen. It clearly needs to be looked into as a matter of urgency. But please try to stay calm and get to the truth.

Why would it be so bad to label the incident as sexual harassment or sexually motivated? That's what it is. If they'd punched another boy would people object to it being labelled as an act of violence? Is that not what we'd do for adults?

Sadly people fall over themselves all through he whole a male's life to excuse their bad behaviour towards women and really do see their reputation as more important than the victim's experience

Did your DD actually tell anyone about the incident OP?
You said originally that she had told two teachers and the head, but it transpires that they knew nothing about it.
In your Op, you don't state whether she told a midday supervisor (it could even have happened during morning or afternoon break). I'm a midday supervisor and an incident such as this would be reported straight away.

I really hope you get to the bottom of what happened, but there is a chance that you were the first person your daughter told.

SaorAlbaGuBrath thanks, I've done it a bit lately, post-Christmas-itus!

If this happened to my daughter, I would raise HELL.

The OP is sorting it with the school. She has raised the issue and it's being sorted.

Glad the school is on board and hope your dd is ok.

I agree with the posters saying this needs urgent intervention - for the boys sake as much as the girls. At their age (year 2 being age 6-7, i.e. very young) this would lead me to have huge concerns as to what they've been exposed to in order to consider this normal behaviour. The vast majority of boys do not behave like this. Such early sexualised behaviour - especially by children too young to understand what they're really doing other than it's a bit naughty - is a massive red flag. Explanations can range from all sorts of reasons such as accidentally witnessing porn or age-inappropriate TV, seeing other, older people behave similarly, being the victims of abuse... Either way, it needs investigating.

Yes lots of dds friends are boys they around this age - they are adorable I couldn't imagine them doing anything like this.

Italiangreyhound I'm going to use that as an excuse all the way to Easter

I'm glad things are changing, and this is being dealt with, op. I just remember how horrified and dumbfound I was when I heard the age of the two kids who killed Jamie Bulger. One was 8 I believe? (I may be wrong and can't be arsed to google, I'm sure MN will be glad to correct me).

Well done you and your little girl op, I'm so sorry you're having to even deal with this x

Great your DD felt able to talk to you. I had a similar incident at this age but it didn't cross my mind to tell anyone, the boy was a few years older and I thought I would be in trouble. Great you have her trust and good luck.

@SuburbanRhonda

It seems remarkably naive to suggest that 6-8 year olds are incapable of any kind of sexual motivation. At that age I had certainly never had any remotely sexual encounters thank God, but was still more than capable of arousal at the envisioning of various scenarios or feelings. I didn't understand the significance and I imagine it was fairly lacking in nuance, but not wishing to put too fine a point on it, the curiosity and instinctive sense that certain images and body parts and situations and even emotions (e.g. Embarrassment) had erotic value was absolutely there.

One assumes and hopes that the incident with OP's DD was at the innocent end of the "scale" in terms of motive, but it very much is a scale, and this sort of behaviour absolutely needs punishing and eradicating before it has the chance to be filed as permissible and mutate into anything more serious.

Where do we think these messages come from? Think of the sheer number of women (and, for that matter, men) and children who are sexually mistreated. The reality is that it's mostly men who carry it out - and the statistics on just how many people are raped and sexually abused means it's a LOT of men. And those men were once little boys.

@mouseclogs

I was done with this thread but as you used the @ function in your post, this meant I got an email from mumsnet directing me to your post.

We have a team in our LA who work with children who display sexually harmful behaviour and they would certainly not agree with your analysis.

But I know that knowledge and understanding of these issues changes, so if you can link to peer-reviewed research to back up your claims, I'd be happy to concede that I'm wrong.

That probably should have been

@MouseClogs

This is horrible . I'd want to know why there was no play ground supervision for children this age, how this could happen and be unnoticed. So there is processed required for after, but really they should be supervising in the first place..

@SuburbanRhonda, I've worked in the field (albeit in a charitable sector capacity rather than a research capacity) and family background is in child psychology.

I ought to clarify that attempts to wilfully engage in any kind of recognisable sexual activity would of course be grossly abnormal in a child of e.g. 7 and would rightly be flagged as such a LA.

I think we might be at crossed purposes slightly. A "knowing" attempt at a sexual assault on the part of these boys would indeed be an enormous red flag as to what they have been exposed to hitherto.

What I meant (and expressed using anecdote which I can assure you is entirely accurate) was that children in general are not divorced entirely from the psychosexual. I don't think it has ever been claimed they are.

My inference was that on that basis, an adult's sexual humiliation of another individual - whilst obviously different from a similar scenario enacted by children - is not conceptually in a different realm altogether. Without wishing to become overly detailed (aware this is read by all and sundry and wouldn't want to casually reference anything that could be wilfully misinterpreted by any unsavoury spectators) children have the concept of things giving them a "funny feeling in their tummy" etc - this is not abnormal or an indicator of abuse in any way and I can confirm from first hand experience that the expert view aligns with the fact that this is perfectly orthodox child development. I would be surprised if any experts in the field have postulated otherwise.

On the other hand, to act in an organised and overt/violent fashion on the basis of any such consciousness is, as you imply, frequently an indicator that the party in question has been exposed to something they shouldn't have been.

So as I say, whilst one hopes and assumes that the incident OP's DD was subjected to was carried out with relative unknowingness, it is by no means a certainty that a boy of 7 or 8 is entirely walled off from the sense that such an action is sexual in nature.