Males in female prisons

[WankingMonkey]

I have noticed a fair bit of support for 'identification' over sex on MN. I am just wondering what peoples opinions are on males wanting into female prisons because they are 'trans'?

If possible, have a think, write out a reply...and [i]then[/i] read this

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/soham-child-killer-ian-huntley-9626220

As I have seen many defenses along the lines of 'noone would pretend to be a woman' and such. But here we have a clear example of this in action. And it is impossible to let 'some' do it and not others, isn't it. You can't make laws without clear boundaries of course.

I actually can't believe it has taken someone like Huntley to wake up a fair few of my friends, this is all over my facebook today with people suddenly u-turning on their previous stance...

See my post. It's not always considered discrimination under the law, or in general. I believe your friend should respect women's right to dignity.

I have noticed a fair bit of support for 'identification' over sex on MN.

I have seen very little support for identification over biology on this site

For the record I don't really care either way but you will see from the millions of 'Trans women in prison' threads on here that most people disagree with it.

but you are lining them up for pretty much guaranteed daily rapes and pregnancies also.

But am I?

Even ignoring the suggestion that murder = rapist which I'm not sure it does.

I don't know the statistics for men being raped (in max. security prison - I don't know the terms) but suspect that some men are subjected to the same. For most here it means "fuck the men" but for me it means I have legitimate reasons to be an MRA.

As you've defined classes Wanking (and thank you for being an entirely reasonable person with a different opinion), does this mean women can be treated differently due to our differences in other walks of life?

As for the babies / pregnancy. I have no answer. This is why I think I have an opinion and not a solution: the same way I see most posts here.

venusinscorpio

Yes, as you've made very clear: womens rights > mens rights

This argument that criminals have sacrificed some level of personal comfort, including the right to single-sex accommodation you're making, or seem to be making, ail? Have you considered the impact on those wrongfully convicted? For example, talking of "baby-killers", famously one bereaved mother, Sally Clark, was wrongfully convicted of the murder of her children.

Do all murderers rape as well then? 🤔

You think what you like ali.

Ouriana

Doesn't this bring us back to my "equality until it suits us to believe otherwise" assertion?

Either we are the same or we aren't. Are you after segregation because men are 'stronger' or for barriers to be removed because women are capable of anything a man is.

So, men are stronger, faster, taller, quicker, (-rapier) but never, ever, ever, ever better at anything in the workplace?

TaraCarter

I realise that this is equivalent to Naziism here, but men can be wrongfully convicted too. This is especially pertinent given Michael Chamberlain's death. Upon the assumption that those convicted are guilty, yes, they have sacrificed some level of personal safety or comfort. Do you disagree? If not, if I were sent to prison tomorrow, should I have my own suite, king size bed etc or should I make sacrifices? Where do those sacrifices end?

Equality of the sexes and having some limited sex segregated spaces partly for reasons of safety but even more for reasons of privacy, modesty and dignity are not the same thing. Yet again.

For the record I don't really care either way but you will see from the millions of 'Trans women in prison' threads on here that most people disagree with it.

That only means that most people on these threads disagree. No-one can claim that that equates either to most people, or most people on MN. There have been a number of instances when people who think differently have said either that do not want to take part in these threads or don't fancy setting themselves up as a target. I'm sure few posters on this thread will agree, but then you can't adjudicate on other people's feelings.

Exactly. It also goes both ways. Some men request treatment from male health practitioners and prefer male only changing rooms. Neither are discriminatory.

ailPartout
I realise that this is equivalent to Naziism here...
but suspect that some men are subjected to the same. For most here it means "fuck the men"

So you would like to believe. You are wrong in those beliefs.

Totally agree "I think the onus should be on explaining why we should remove sex segregation, rather than women trying to defend it"

We are equal (females and males),but we (females) are not treated equally.

Sex segregation doesn't make anyone unequal. It helps to slightly attempt to level the playing field.

I don't want anyone to be vulnerable to rape in prison, male or female. But I also do not want males in female prisons.

There is no logical argument to include males in women's prisons.

Of course women should be free to request a female doctor. The idea we should not be free to do so is crazy. I am perfectly happy to see a male doctor. But I cannot assume all women will feel as I do. If a man wants to see a male doctor that is fine too.

What could be wrong with that?

Why should a man with a penis be allowed in a womens prison.
If men are raped and attacked ion male prisons, thats a symptom of male violence.
Its male violence that needs to be tackled and you dont do that by putting more people at risk.

DJBaggy

You are wrong in those beliefs.

Slow the fuck down. Far too much information to take in in one sitting!

Ouriana

I strongly believe in equality for all, however I do not think equality means treating everyone equally

Because men are stronger?

I believe in equality of opportunity as opposed to equality of outcome. You and I fundamentally differ. I think we should all be celebrated for our relative achievements. You think the weaker among us (for whatever reason) should be boosted up so that everyone gets a participation medal.

If I'm wong, please correct me.

venusinscorpio

So, equal until it benefits us otherwise?

No one has yet explained why:

My being accused of being a man was an insult.

or

Why women are a protected class.

DJ I get the impression that Ail regards access to women as an inherent male right.

Namechange You are right - and it's not worth anyone saying that they don't have an issue with trans people as they get shouted down. So this site feels a bit like an echo chamber sometimes - only the people who agree with the more vocal posters will stick their head about the parapet!

Italiangreyhound

Of course women should be free to request a female doctor. The idea we should not be free to do so is crazy. What could be wrong with that?

Opportunity cost.

You having a Dr of sex (gender?) you request vs. spending the money elsewhere.

Would you ever accept a trans person checking you out (in a clinical way) or is it down to the genitals they were born with that makes them worthy?

Do you really not see this as stereotyping based on sex?

If not, why not?

I realise that this is equivalent to Naziism here, but men can be wrongfully convicted too. This is especially pertinent givenMichael Chamberlain'sdeath.

In other news, the Pope is a Catholic and bears don't have inside plumbing.

Where in my post did I assert that miscarriages of justice were sex-specific? I rather thought I'd used gender-neutral terms like "criminals" and then referred you to the most famous miscarriage of justice involving child death, by way of example. Who happened to be female. I use the past tense because she is now dead. Google it.

You are arguing wholesale against any sex segregation at all. That is not what the trans lobbyists want.

noeffingidea

Why not address me directly instead of posting nonsense and then fucking off?

tara

most famous according to who?

venusinscorpio

No. I'm saying lobbyists want segregation when it suits them and not when it doesn't.

I say, fuck the doubters. I'm as strong as any man. I have proved myself over and over again throughout my life and I resent anyone suggesting that the playing filed isn't level as this takes away from my achievements.

ail because I wasn't talking to you. I was adressing a point that another poster made.
Perhaps I should have said 'people who hold the view that Ail has expressed on this thread re no requirement for sex segragation' or similar.
You are the person expressing that view on this thread, seemingly the only one. That is the only conclusion I can draw from your position.

ailPartout
You have contradicted yourself. If you believe men get raped in male only prisons, then you accept that men rape.
In that case you are unreasonable not to understand why women need separate prisons from men.
It is mens violence that is the issue. Not womens behaviour.