Males in female prisons

[WankingMonkey]

I have noticed a fair bit of support for 'identification' over sex on MN. I am just wondering what peoples opinions are on males wanting into female prisons because they are 'trans'?

If possible, have a think, write out a reply...and [i]then[/i] read this

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/soham-child-killer-ian-huntley-9626220

As I have seen many defenses along the lines of 'noone would pretend to be a woman' and such. But here we have a clear example of this in action. And it is impossible to let 'some' do it and not others, isn't it. You can't make laws without clear boundaries of course.

I actually can't believe it has taken someone like Huntley to wake up a fair few of my friends, this is all over my facebook today with people suddenly u-turning on their previous stance...

Yes Bambamini just read about Paris Green, AKA Peter Laing. A sickening and violent murder, a gender reassignment change op paid for the NHS and sex with inmates in a female prison Because vulnerable locked up women in jail couldn't be coerced into a relationship with a violent male who committed murder. This is a very far cry from the trans woman prisoner that most people think of isn't it.

I'm not denying vulnerable trans women prisoners do exist but exactly how do we include some and deny others. Whoever made the decision to allow Paris Green anywhere near vulnerable women?

I'm not sure there are any reasonable grounds for validating one transwoman's identity by putting them in with women, and not another's, merely based on whether they have been convicted of a violent crime to date.

Italian I don't think I am suggesting there are a lot of non-violent trans women to consider....I was simply pointing out that if you also wouldn't want to house a very mild mannered, slightly built TW with no history of violence whatsoever in with female prisoners, then it is disingenuous to keep dragging up the issue of violent men.

I actually don't think it is ridiculous at all to treat non-violent prisoners differently to violent ones. I imagine it happens all the time, in the absence of any trans issues, so why not continue that policy to dealing differently with violent and non-violent trans prisoners?

First and foremost, though I believe all prisoners should be safe.

Morphene "I was simply pointing out that if you also wouldn't want to house a very mild mannered, slightly built TW with no history of violence whatsoever in with female prisoners, then it is disingenuous to keep dragging up the issue of violent men."

No, I think you are missing my point. I am not scared of a nice well mannered trans person. And I said I would not feel they would present a threat - or words to that affect. But if you allow some people in you have got to allow that this will mean others will come in too.

And the whole point is prisons are segregated on sex, not gender, or personality or how one feels.

It is exactly because the inclusion will allow the inclusion of other dangerous male criminals that I have an issue with the presence of the one nice non-dangerous. I am sorry if that was not clear.

I actually don't think it is ridiculous at all to treat non-violent prisoners differently to violent ones. I imagine it happens all the time, in the absence of any trans issues, so why not continue that policy to dealing differently with violent and non-violent trans prisoners?

There's a lot you might imagine would be sensible that doesn't happen in prisons as it is, so supporting such a fundamental change as the abolition of sex segregation in prison seems a very risky place to start.

There is already the segregation of some very, very violent and disruptive prisoners - one of the trans prisoners who died by their own hand last year would never, ever have been transferred to the female estate even if they'd gone further in their "transition" (all they'd done so far was change their name, and since they apparently had a record of trolling the prison authorities, there was some doubt as to their sincerity in wishing to transition), as there isn't a CSC high-security facility in the women's estate that could cope with such a dangerous prisoner. (This prisoner could not be left alone with their own lawyer in case they tried to kill them.)

But in women's prisons, most of the few murderers and pub-brawlers are likely to mix with the shoplifters and the drug dealers, with no real distinction in their circumstances. Those considered at risk from other prisoners (eg because they committed crimes against children) can go into segregation, but it's not automatic, and I don't know how this works in women's prisons. There are two high-security women's prisons, whose inmates include the only two women prisoners convicted of murder currently on a whole-life tariff (one of which is Rosemary West), but neither as far as I know has a CSC.

italian it wasn't you that made the comment I was responding too...it was AA.

She kept saying the reason you shouldn't mix men with women in prison is that male prisoners are more violent than female prisoners.

I definitely think violent prisoners should be kept away from others they could harm, particularly those almost guaranteed to be physically weaker than them.

I just don't think this rationale extends to non-violent crimes and or prisoners, regardless of gender.

And you absolutely CAN have one rule for the violent offenders and one rule for the non-violent offenders...because prisons can and do have different rules for those subsets already.

I seriously hope that a female murderer with a history of sexual violence is not on the loose in the general female prison just because she has a vagina!

I think male prisons seem stricter, less congenial places than female prisons exactly because the balance of violent to non-violent prisoners is different so more people are kept under a harsher higher security regime. But I am sure the violent women in female prisons are under higher security also.

I guess I am just a bit fed up with the 'well if we let one person born with a penis, who has lived their whole life as female, done the therapies, had the surgery be treated as an actual woman, then there will be nothing to stop a guy in a beard slapping on a dress and demanding to run the local rape survivors shelter, specifically so he can get access to vulnerable women' trope.

Because actually we aren't that stupid as a society. And if Huntley does go through with becoming a woman, it isn't going to cause him to be suddenly out on day release working part time at a school....just because he is a lady now. The prison system will treat him with the caution required, including not being out in the general prison population, regardless which actual building he is housed in. He will be treated first according to his crimes and his status as a violent prisoner....and gender is irrelevant to that.

And actually, that is the society I want to live in, the one where you are treated according to your actual own personal actions and your gender, and the actions of other members of the same gender, are totally irrelevant.

AA x-posted.

Well that is astonishing to me. How terrible for women to be imprisoned with violent prisoners around them.

I wasn't planning to commit any crimes but the idea you might be sharing space or even a cell with someone who has attacked others is awful.

I'd still far FAR rather share a cell with a fraudster TW than a woman convicted of assault though!

But I take your point that female prisons might simply be incapable of housing TW in some cases.

It's not a "trope" Morphene. It did happen that a transwoman wanted to work at a rape centre and sued them for years.

I'm equally fed up with the attitude of "open minded" people like you who enable transactivists to shit all over women's rights to privacy and dignity, and safety. But safety is not the be all and end all here.

Morpheus thanks for taking what I just posted on-board. Honestly, the prison system is a mess, and too many people are vulnerable overall.

I guess I am just a bit fed up with the 'well if we let one person born with a penis, who has lived their whole life as female, done the therapies, had the surgery be treated as an actual woman, then there will be nothing to stop a guy in a beard slapping on a dress and demanding to run the local rape survivors shelter, specifically so he can get access to vulnerable women' trope.

Except this isn't a trope, it's reality. That's what is happening now. People with male bodies who have in reality done little more than "slap on a dress" (and some have done less than that - the notorious Danielle Muscato took space in a women's shelter) are demanding and getting access to resources reserved for women. There are campaigns to get some women's shelters defunded because they don't accept transwomen either as workers or as clients. (And there isn't a TW in the world who has - or could - "live their whole life as female" anyway, as socialisation starts at birth.)

Because actually we aren't that stupid as a society.

You'd think so, but apparently we are. I think one of the areas where you and I disagree is in you assume the world operates in a common-sense framework, and I think while it should, it really doesn't.

I'm equally fed up with the attitude of "open minded" people like you

Who knew a 410 post thread could be summed up with one sentence.

So did the 'man in a dress' actually get to work in the rape centre in the end?
As far as I can tell they didn't...but then maybe I am finding the wrong case?

I don't know, Morphene, but I do know rape crisis centres, and how overworked and underfunded they are (and how incredibly stressful their job is), so the idea that some random wanker can tie up their money, energy and time in the service of a lawsuit centering around their own massive sense of male entitlement, to the detriment of the crisis centre's ability to service all the women who have been raped and who need help, by itself demonstrates how so very unfit this person was to work in a rape crisis centre.

Ie this person damaged rape crisis services for women, and took up women's energies, time and money, whether he won or lost.

Yes I agree you have to be a pretty special sort of person to start suing a rape crisis centre.

What I meant about it being a 'trope' is that (as far as I can tell) it has not actually happened.

It is a problem to say, if we allow A, we will be powerless to stop B, when in reality we seem to be actually okay with allowing A (eg. transgirls in guides, or even non-violent TW in female prisons) without B (TW working in a rape centre, Huntley on the loose in a womens prison) as far as I can see.

So maybe society is actually being more sensible than you think? Though it is almost certainly a whole lot less sensible than I think it is, as your previous post on prisons proves!

It will happen. Because that is "activism" to these arseholes. And if self-identification is allowed there are no grounds to stop it. So no, not convinced at all by your argument that society is sensible.

What I meant about it being a 'trope' is that (as far as I can tell) it has not actually happened.

Though we do have, and have had in the fast, violent males, or male paedos, in female prisons because it makes them more comfortable. Not Huntley...but others like him but less publicised than him So not totally trope.

Of the transwomen I know who were moved to women's prisons in the UK, Paris Green was definitely one. Green tortured a man to death, and then started to "transition" after conviction. They were moved to a different women's prisons after having sex with some of the women prisoners. (Bear in mind that Green is a convicted torture-murderer, and that most of the women he will have come across in prison will have been convicted of nonviolent crimes, and will themselves have been victims of DV or child abuse, so we will never know just how consensual this sex was.)

Tara Hudson, who was moved from a male prison to a women's prison after a campaign by Hudson's supporters, claimed to have transitioned some years previously, before conviction - wore their hair long, wore make-up, boob job, took a female-coded name, and so on. Hudson also retained their male genitalia, in full working order, which we know because they worked as an escort, and advertised their "7-inch surprise". Hudson was convicted of assault after attacking a barman in a pub so badly he had to have reconstruction on his teeth. If you google Hudson, almost everything you will find goes on about their tragic story of being put in the "wrong" prison, and very little about the violent assault that got them banged up in the first place, or their previous convictions for violence, or the fact they still had a working dick. But moved to a women's prison all the same.

Not a trope. A reality.

Morphine the case I linked to was of (as described) transsexual woman (post operative) who had volunteered in a rape crisis centre where they were allowed to volunteer. They then turned their attention to a rape crisis centre that did not accept trans women and asked to volunteer there.

When they got a no they tied up the rape crisis centre for (if memory serves me) 10 years. They got the court and women to have to say they were a woman but they were not permitted to volunteer there. They lost their final appeal.

The fact that the Canadian legal service allowed this travesty for a fucking decade shoes just how keen society is to bend over backwards for men, to listen to them and make them feel special and just how little regard women are held in.

It goes without saying not all men, not all trans women.

Canada now has (so I believe) the most 'trans-friendly' laws which allow women to be shat on from a great height.

I was myself once very trans friendly and would still consider myself a true ally of true trans people.

Sadly these men have no one else in mind except self and a determination to make others believe that they are what they say they are.

I know exactly what this person is.

So did they succeed, no. Would someone in future? I would assume yes.

Society - sensible? NO. Deluded - yes.

This is fascinating (old 2012 but still) it explores women only spaces…

Article called Legalities of excluding trans women from women only spaces

If you read it you can skip some Googling by knowing that XXY is Klinefelter syndrome (KS) also known as 47,XXY or XXY, the set of symptoms that result from two or more X chromosomes in males (males, note, the use here is about ‘some women do have a Y chromosome’, the article is talking about Intersex).

Jenna Talackova is a stunning Canadian transgender model.

It’s short. It ends…“Feminists more than anybody else should know that being a woman is not about socially constructed gender roles. And it’s not about a uterus or menstruation or even the absence of a Y chromosome, because plenty of women don’t have a uterus, don’t menstruate, and some women do have a Y chromosome (XXY is just one of the many configurations possible.) If ‘woman’ can (or should) be defined, it is by subconscious gender, that part of your id which knows who you are and would still know if you were a brain in a jar. That can’t be policed. Whether or not it would be desirable, reasonable or legal to try to exclude trans women, it’s not possible. Or at least, not without looking very much like the same patriarchy that I thought we were overthrowing.

*Yes, the irony struck me too.”

www.thefword.org.uk/2012/05/legalities_of_e/

This part of the trans movement doesn’t seem to think they should be excluded from anywhere women can be because they are women, in their own minds. And even if they were a brain in a jar they would still be women – according to the author.

The reality is we cannot look inside the brain in a jar or elsewhere and see anything of any significance, so we are left listening to people who believe they are women, and if we make that status legal then it is impossible to stop those trans women from accessing any space that is reserved for females. The fact that their presence may deter women, real women, with or without periods (mine stopped long ago) doesn’t seem to come into it. The only really key bit seems do we buy into their version of their own reality and do we allow it to control our reality to the exclusion of everything else, even biology? If we asked that of other situations I am sure the answer would be no. Can I perform brain surgery if I believe I am a brain surgeon? Does my bum look big in this if I am anorexic?

I don’t believe it is all or nothing. We can have robust legal and social protections for trans women and trans men but we cannot say because, in some bit of your brain, you believe or tell us you believe, you are female, that you are.

Anymore news on whether this Huntley thing is real?

I wonder if information on who is requesting to move to a female prison is in the public domain?

yep - the scientist who got fired for investigating the nature of trans was in Canada too I think....they are indeed trail blazing.....or setting fire to things, depending on your perspective.

I wonder if it is actually so hard to look in the jar though. When someone says they identify as female, it shouldn't be too difficult to test? There are tests for sexual orientation that use images and brain/physical response to indicate the answer. I wonder if you could devise a test to indicate if someone naturally identified with the male or female characters being shown in the same way? And if, by the time we are adult we have different brains (because of sexism in our society, and the way it socializes men and women) then that should show up too.

There are actually a lot of physically measurable quantities that relate to gender identity...so what actually prevents there being a trans gender test? I suspect the answer to this is TRAs......

Morphene your comments are interesting and I wonder if they could do that but in reality, I don't think anyone except a few feminists care.

Many women (and a lot of men) see no harm or potential damage.

Sorry Morphene I meant you can tell different types of trans but nit who is trans since trans means anything. I could claim to be trans and who could argue!

But here are some comments 're trans women.

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2012/11/22/transgender-field-guide/

yes, I guess any attempt to demonstrate actual 'gender' implies such a thing is there to be measured in the first place!

When you watch a movie, or an advert, and you are somewhere in your brain thinking 'I wish I was more like that person' you almost always think that about someone the same gender as you. Even very young children do this. So in that sense of the words 'identify with' I think it is very easy to decide which gender you identify with. It also doesn't revolve around stereotypical ideas of gendered behaviour. I might identify a whole load more with a female character in a role as a medic or scientist, or in a tomboy like role, than one as a popstar, or model, but I still aspire to be the like female characters that engage me more than the male characters that engage me. The problem for women is a lack of diversity in this area to identify with....if I ask DD who on the Octopod she most wishes to be like, she will definitely say Kwazi, because she is into madcap tomfoolery and acrobatics...which doesn't say she is trans, it just says there isn't enough diversity of female (or male) representation in children's cartoons

" I might identify a whole load more with a female character in a role as a medic or scientist, or in a tomboy like role, than one as a popstar, or model, but I still aspire to be the like female characters that engage me more than the male characters that engage me."

I would gently suggest his has nothing to do with 'gender' but the fact you are the same sex.
I do reognise some will truely identify with the opposite sex and this is what will be called Gender but from the clips of different types of trans women I wonder if we are trying to collect a view of 'gender' it would be easier to say that they fall into different categories of trans women. That won;t be something easy to categorise as people never want to fit into someone else's gender pattern, look how hard women work to avoid being labelled as such (right).

Gender really could mean anything, why would females be less likely to be medics? My doctor is female.

Indeed (I love Octonaughts, DS loved Kwazi) but in almost all kids films/TV/stories there will be one or two female characters and they will be the love interest for one or two of the male characters; and then all the male characters will have other story lines. i am sure you notice it but I wonder if you remember it all as intently as I do!

I wish I had this memory for other things!

A very good example of this is the Madagascar series which features a female owl, who one of the Penguins falls for, the hippo who the giraffe loves, (she gets her own love interest too, Motto Motto), a sexy leopard or something, a very mean human female villain, a mean granny villain, a lioness, the bear in the tutu and ... drum roll.... a wooden doll which one of the penguins grows attached to (love interest).

It's hilarious and I love it but let's be honest unless my mind may be failing me basically that is 4 films and only just over half a dozen 'female' characters, one not even alive!

As against 3 main animals, four male penguins, male monkeys, several male human characters, a male villain in Pengines of Madagascar, the North Wind Team minus the owl, the circus minus tut and the leopard, King Julius, Alex's dad and uncle and the police force from France minus the Edith Piaf character!

So when females are looking to associate in films or stories there are virtually no female roles, female heroes and no female leads.

Kwazi is a cat, so identifying with a cat or a male character is fine, but at some point girls need to find the role models and heros in the things they read and see.

Phew how did we get from prison to Octonaughts!