Males in female prisons

[WankingMonkey]

I have noticed a fair bit of support for 'identification' over sex on MN. I am just wondering what peoples opinions are on males wanting into female prisons because they are 'trans'?

If possible, have a think, write out a reply...and [i]then[/i] read this

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/soham-child-killer-ian-huntley-9626220

As I have seen many defenses along the lines of 'noone would pretend to be a woman' and such. But here we have a clear example of this in action. And it is impossible to let 'some' do it and not others, isn't it. You can't make laws without clear boundaries of course.

I actually can't believe it has taken someone like Huntley to wake up a fair few of my friends, this is all over my facebook today with people suddenly u-turning on their previous stance...

If there's a chance a transwoman will be killed in a male prison or be a rapist in a female prison then isn't it better to give them a chance of life?

So essentially you're asking isn't it better that one person remains alive, even at the expense of say 10 women being raped, than that one person being killed?

I'm not sure to be honest. Of those 10 women that get raped in order than the one trans person doesn't get killed, one of the 10 will commit suicide as a direct result of the trauma of the rape - that will have huge repercussions on their family. So no, I'm not sure it is better that the one person remains alive.

(Figures made up to illustrate the point that you cannot simply compare alive today vs not alive today - you need to look at all the other factors.)

So actually you just have odd ideas against sex segregation in principle. And no empathy for women who don't feel the same way.

ali you'd be totally ok with a woman who has been raped not getting any treatment for her injuries because she would want to request a female doctor? Because the male doctor might be offended?

^ail not ali, sorry.

'His best friend is OBGYN. If he were turned down because of his penis then he'd rightfully be offended. '

Assuming you mean turned down by an individual woman patient as opposed to for a job, I bet he wouldn't. Men working in healthcare generally have enough experience to know why a woman might not be comfortable with a man involved in her intimate healthcare. Any man that gets personally offended by the idea that some women prefer to request a female doctor for certain things is not going to last long in the job.

So essentially you're asking isn't it better that one person remains alive, even at the expense of say 10 women being raped, than that one person being killed?

Yes. The key word being asking as opposed to knowing or thinking I know the answer.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel

He lives up to the stereotype (as does DH, if I'm honest) of having a possibly poor beside manner. I suspect somewhere on the spctrum due to a very black and white outlook on life. I would be disappointed but not surprised if they'd asked a patient outright why they wanted a woman instead of him when he was the more experienced or qualified.

ali you'd be totally ok with a woman who has been raped not getting any treatment for her injuries because she would want to request a female doctor? Because the male doctor might be offended?

Seems contrary to my saying "[Should segregation apply] to rape victims, that still request male or female doctors?

No."

This is a special case where mental well being or reasonable (easy) adjustments for a victim can be put in place. I can't see an arguement against this.

So "it's hard not to sympathise with a rape victim" but you think they shouldn't be able to request a female doctor?

Cross post. So would they ask a woman intrusive questions about why she didn't want a male doctor? Do you think that's reasonable?

venusinscorpio

That's not what I meant. Sorry. See my x-post.

They should get a choice. Should the NHS be obliged to have both sexes on hand in case (as both sexes can be raped)? Not sure.

Someone who needs an op for routine surgery on the NHS - Well, I think that's much less clear cut and I'd tend to go with, 'this is what we have available to you.'

Too many x-posts.

If by intrusive, you mean 'are you here as the result of a crime', I think that's fair. A nurse may have to ask what kind of Dr you'd like to see (less so in the UK): dermatologist, OB, etc. That can be done simply and easily and with little to no distres, embarrassment or other negative impact.

No it's not fair. I don't want to have to justify my request for a woman rather than a man to perform intimate examinations on my own body by telling people I have been raped. And yes, they should where at all possible have both sexes on hand. It would be discrimination against some women from other cultures if they didn't. Some Muslim women wouldn't be able to be examined by a male doctor so it would stop them accessing health care.

And it isn't just when rape victims are brought in that they can suffer trauma. It's years and years later. Rape victims often suffer PTSD.

"If there's a chance a transwoman will be killed in a male prison or be a rapist in a female prison then isn't it better to give them a chance of life? "

Except that the transwomen in male prisons where there are many transwomen said they feel 'safe'

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/05/prisoners-should-allowed-wear-clothes-transgender-inmates-can/

Transwomen can be catered for in a small number of male prisons, probably sex offender units, as that's where transwomen are (by far) most common.

venusinscorpio

The NHS (as we've gone a little off-track) and prison service are under-funded. There is a massive opportunity cost for both the government to perfectly provide for either as well as an opportunity cost for either service to disproportionately provide for an 'unusual' situation.

If I were able to provide a single OB to deal with emergency cases (and for their workload to be manageable) and to also fund expensive medication or have an OB of either sex on the off chance they're requested, I'd go for the former. As TheCountess said, being turned down for a job as opposed to a particular patient because of your sex would be discriminatory and surely not something you'd condone.

I don't want to have to justify my request for a woman rather than a man

It was a yes no question. Surely this isn't "justifying".

It would be discrimination against some women from other cultures if they didn't. Some Muslim women wouldn't be able to be examined by a male doctor so it would stop them accessing health care.

I don't know much about discrimination law. It may say a lot about me but I have zero sympathy with someone who has no reason to be especially emotional ("I have a sore stomach") but refuses point blank to see a male Dr because a made up book tells them not to.

rosehippy

My opinions on sex offenders units may not win me many friends here. Actually, if they're male sex offenders, perhaps they will.

It's not always discrimination to have a role that is only open to one sex. There are exceptions within the law. For reasons of safety, privacy and dignity. As we are discussing.

"I don't know much about discrimination law. It may say a lot about me but I have zero sympathy with someone who has no reason to be especially emotional ("I have a sore stomach") but refuses point blank to see a male Dr because a made up book tells them not to."

Funnily enough, I can't see how the epistemological status of the assertion "I am a woman because I feel like a woman on the inside, despite having XY chromosomes and male genitalia" differs in any way from the epistemological status of the assertion "I believe in god because I have an internal feeling of the transcendant, ineffable existence of the divine."

erm--.... by definition women's prisons are for, well, women aren't they? It is impossible to change one's innate biological sex so the answer is very simple. If we are talking about gender- well, gender is a stereotyping sexist crock of a social construct that feminists have been fighting against for decades, and in no way should be paid any attention to by people deciding which prison to send and offender to.

Can anyone actaully give a reason as to why transwomen cannot be housed in mems prisons?

Read my posts, I work in the rehabilitation of offenders for NOMS, and know that for reasons relating to their offending and rehabilitation needs, there needs to be segregation by sex.

transwomen ARE housed in men's prisons. There are a dozen in one prison, and that number is expected to rise according the Inspectorate of Prisons.

I presume transwomen will CONTINUE to be housed in men's prisons. The question is why are ANY transwomen in women's prisons, when men's prisons are able to cater for them.

Peak trans anyone?

adammac.co.uk/2017/01/08/discrimination-unnoticed-unchallenged-and-unresolved/

This is written from an inmate of Wakefield, a male prison.

"HMP Wakefield has dropped an ‘L’, now holding regular ‘GBT’ forums. When asked why they did this the staff explained that, since there are no female prisoners here, there aren’t any lesbians, so there’s no need for an ‘L’. Well, since they kept the ‘T’ I’m guessing that they acknowledge the presence of transgender prisoners here. I wonder how they feel about the claim that there are no female prisoners at this jail. I happen to know of at least one prisoner who self-identifies as female and openly states that they are attracted to women and are therefore a lesbian."

Trans privilege again....

YY MostlyHet. Is gender like your soul, I wonder?

venusinscorpio

So my friend should be discriminated against because he is male?

M0stlyHet

Since googling 'epistemological' (have you lot swallowed a dictionary), I struggle to give a fuck about those whose 'good book' told them men were bad.

Ouriana

Lose the acronyms. I'm guilty of over-use too but it's detracting from your posts .

I'll answer and ask one more question. If I'm continued to be ignored I'll assume there's no answer and I'm correct.

I think the onus should be on explaining why we should remove sex segregation, rather than women trying to defend it.

Because either:

a) mean and women are the same and there is no reason to segregate based on sex

b) men and women are different and therefore treating the two sexes differently is expected and fair.

The latter blows apart feminist arguments. The former, most replies to this thread.

If so, doesn't this suggest I'm correct segregating by crime as opposed to sex?

A large part of the problem I see with mixed sex wings is babies being born in prison. Especially people who have a long sentence. I don't think we should be making that possible to be honest.

I do get where you are coming from, but a huge amount of males are put away for violent crimes where female crime tends to be more stuff like fraud, and non-violent crime. With that being said ,say a prison for murderers. 100 males, and 2 females in there. Yes, the females shouldn't have committed the crime but you are lining them up for pretty much guaranteed daily rapes and pregnancies also. Men, as a class are stronger than women as a class. As such, in vulnerable situations, I do think sex segregation is needed. Thanks for actually engaing though, truly. Most people shout names then flounce :)