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AIBU?

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Males in female prisons

438 replies

WankingMonkey · 15/01/2017 17:25

I have noticed a fair bit of support for 'identification' over sex on MN. I am just wondering what peoples opinions are on males wanting into female prisons because they are 'trans'?

If possible, have a think, write out a reply...and [i]then[/i] read this

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/soham-child-killer-ian-huntley-9626220

As I have seen many defenses along the lines of 'noone would pretend to be a woman' and such. But here we have a clear example of this in action. And it is impossible to let 'some' do it and not others, isn't it. You can't make laws without clear boundaries of course.

I actually can't believe it has taken someone like Huntley to wake up a fair few of my friends, this is all over my facebook today with people suddenly u-turning on their previous stance...

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 16/01/2017 09:03

I'd like equality please. But as it is not in your power, to give it I would like some degree of sex segregation to provide women with some degree of safety and privacy to women.

Peak trans it not about hating trans people. It is about becoming aware of how female rights, hard won, are being eroded by others. Not just trans people actually, men and women who in pushing a trans agenda are isolating young children presenting as trans, ensuring they don't get help unless they continue to transition. And putting women in danger.

Plus maybe ask a transsexual woman who has had hormones and surgery if she wants to be represented by a heated male.

ailPartout · 16/01/2017 09:08

what is a 'heated male'? If it's a typo, I can't guess.

noeffingidea · 16/01/2017 09:09

ailpartout putting males and females together in prison has absolutely nothing to do with equality. Of course male and female prisoners should be treated equally, in their own prisons. If males are allowed into female prisons then that runs counter to equality, as the females become statistically more likely to become victims of violence.

Datun · 16/01/2017 09:21

ailPartout

'Equality' like that would mean an increase in arresting (non-existent) violently sexual offending women to match the 98% of violent sexual crime committed by men. Equality would mean women want to two men a week to be murdered by their partners. Equality would mean forcing men into sex trafficking and prostitution, to match the level of women there. Equality would mean forcing men to go through honour killings and the equivalent of FGM, to match that of women.

Where there is an overwhelming negative imbalance like the sex offences, equality is not achieved by increase, but by reduction.

ailPartout · 16/01/2017 09:40

I guess the issue comes down as to just how deeply your misandry runs...

I'm going to go away and find some men to hate.

noeffingidea · 16/01/2017 09:44

ailpartout while you're there, why don't you consult a dictionary.

noeffingidea · 16/01/2017 09:47

ail or you could even try analysing a few simple facts and statistics. It might help you understand a little better.

SpeakNoWords · 16/01/2017 09:52

It seems like people who come onto threads like these to tell us that everyone is being transphobic, bigoted, hate-filled and misogynist/misandrist can never actually say why, or attempt to explain their point of view. They just chuck insults around and then flounce.

Ouriana · 16/01/2017 09:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

noeffingidea · 16/01/2017 10:00

Agreed speak.
Obviously ail's argument has no legs seeing as there is fact based evidence that supports the need for prisons to be segregated by biological sex. It must be hard to argue logically when you don't understand the definition of quite simple words though.

MuteButtonisOn · 16/01/2017 10:14

Call me transphobic, but if you have ever raped or murdered a female you can fuck right off with expecting the right to become one whilst in prison. I think Huntley would find he would be absolutely fucked if he was allowed to transition and be moved to a female prison where he could ( wouldn't happen ) mix with women.

titchy · 16/01/2017 10:20

ail - do you think a biological female would be safe in a male prison?

noeffingidea · 16/01/2017 10:32

titchy I wouldn't bother. He she (oops) has flounced.
As a general rule I find most ordinary people acknowledge the need for sex segregated prisons and when they argue against them I have to question why.

WankingMonkey · 16/01/2017 13:49

I think we have sex segregation because women want equality until it suits them better not to have it ie. "Yes, I'm a dangerous child killer but keep him away from me. They have a penis and are therefore more dangerous." It's that kind of thinking that made me stop being a feminist years ago and am embarrassed to be called so.

OK thanks for answering. And your opinions on not needing segregation also. I totally understand where you are coming from. I just cannot understand those who claim we do need segregation but feelings should override biology. Obviously I do disagree with your viewpoint for a variety of reasons but I understand it now.

OP posts:
MrsGWay · 16/01/2017 14:28

I didn't think I could get angrier about this but the link by Italiangreyhound has done it! Women prisoners are especially vulnerable as they are often in there due to historical abuse. Also they have nowhere to go to escape from their fellow inmates. It's not like they can go and live somewhere else.

AskBasil · 16/01/2017 19:54

This seems aposite

Equality

People who go on about equality meaning women should be put at risk of male violence, make me think they're not really in favour of equality at all and can be safely ignored.

Italiangreyhound · 16/01/2017 21:49

ailPartout "what is a 'heated male' Sorry, yes, typo. Bearded male.

WankingMonkey · 16/01/2017 23:19

Whilst statistics tell females they are at clear risk from males, I think segregation is very much needed, especially in places such as prisons and hostels.

OP posts:
ailPartout · 17/01/2017 07:28

noeffing

as the females become statistically more likely to become victims of violence.

I couldn't find any statistics based on prisons which aren't segregated by male/female/trans. They all seem to be. Where are your stats coming from?

ailpartout while you're there, why don't you consult a dictionary.

I've managed to be polite, simply have a different opinion to you.

It might help you understand a little better.

See above. Are you as rude in real life or only online?

Ourina

It isnt man hating to point out the vast majority of rapists remain unconvicted, so the man convicted of sexual assault could also be a threat of rape.

I couldn't find any statistics about the number of men who are accused but not found guilty of rape but are found guilty of sexual assault. Is that what you meant? If you meant that x percent of men accused of rape are not found guilty then this is entirely different. It does seem that fewer people are convicted of rape as a percentage than for other crimes but perhaps this has more to do with the type of crime it is. I don't see how conviction rates can be improved. I certainly don't think there should be any burden of proof adjustments in sexual assault / rape cases. Perhaps anonymity for both parties (accused and accuser).

It's man hating to hate men and to judge people based on their genitalia. Isn't that what feminists pretend to hate? I think the fact that effing said "I wouldn't bother. He she (oops) has flounced." shows the attitude of many and the misandry evident in some posts. Has a different opinion ∴ is a man. In my field there are many more men. I'm at a conference next week of 220 and there will be 8 women. If anyone of the men told me I was wrong because / and it was a women's opinion, I'd probably call them a 'cunt' quite loudly. Most would agree that that's unacceptable. It seems perfectly acceptable in reverse.

Despite your accusation (yes, that sums you up fairly well) of my sex, flouncing seems a little gendered. Quite bitchy, if you will.

Rather than shouting names it may help if you engage with the debate.

I haven't shouted - as we're writing, I assume you meant writing in caps. How have I not engaged with the debate? You mean stepping away from the keyboard to do other things? Yes, you'll have to forgive that.

titchy
ail - do you think a biological female would be safe in a male prison?

I think prisons are unsafe for many inmates. Male or female. Most women in prison aren't especially nice people, I suspect.

MrsGWay

Women prisoners are especially vulnerable as they are often in there due to historical abuse.

Yet men are in there because their 'Y' chromosome makes them stonecold killers. Women are only in there because of some terrible past deed which can also be blamed on men. Are men locked up due to toxic masculinity?

AskBasil

I thought prison was about rehabilitation. To me, justice is eye-for-an-eye style.

I have a thought experiment I'd love to be answered.

When I was in my 30s, I was strong, tall (6' 0") and athletic. I ran half marathons, lifted weights, rode bikes nearly daily and had gone to Jiu Jitsu since Uni. Whilst I'm less rapey than a man, I posed a significant threat to some men and certainly many women - if I'fd been so inclined, of course.

If I was imprisoned for murder (with a sexual element) after a robbery had gone wrong, should I have been in the general population in a women's prison? I could have physically dominated many in there.

Should I have been treated like a woman because of my vagina or a man because of my strength?

titchy · 17/01/2017 07:56

You didn't answer my question. And we weren't debating how nice or otherwise male or female prisoners were. We were discussing levels of violence.

Check the stats. Far far far fewer violent female prisoners than male.

So to repeat. Do you think a female prisoner would be safe in a male prison?

ailPartout · 17/01/2017 08:39

So to repeat. Do you think a female prisoner would be safe in a male prison?

Not especially. I don't think prison is a safe place for anyone. As for, "would a woman be safer in a male or female prison", neither of us know the answer. We can infer from statistics that they perhaps wouldn't but as prisons appear to be universally segregated, it's impossible to know. Inference according to sex seems very, very similar to sexis, wouldn't you agree?

If you're asking, 'would a woman be safer in a male or female prison' then I would guess a female one.

I hope I answered.

You ignore all of my questions but I'll have another go.

If there's a chance a transwoman will be killed in a male prison or be a rapist in a female prison then isn't it better to give them a chance of life?

Are there some crimes that deserve you to risk your life?

If so, doesn't this suggest I'm correct segregating by crime as opposed to sex? If not, doesn't everyone deserve the chance to not be killed. In my mind, not detracting from sexual assault (of any sort), murder is worse than rape. Being killed is worse than being raped.

LunaLoveg00d · 17/01/2017 08:44

The best solution is probably seperate wings or units for transwomen

This is what I think too, and separate units for transmen in male prisons. I can understand why someone trans would feel threatened in a prison with people of their biological sex and why women would not be happy having a transwoman in their cells.

There must be a half way house though - transwomen being included in the general prison population for meal times or education classes and separated at other times.

How much of an issue is this really though? Are there more than a handful of people affected by this?

Ouriana · 17/01/2017 09:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ailPartout · 17/01/2017 10:14

How many transwomen have been murdered in male prisons as a result of being trans?

I have no idea. It's surely nigh on impossible to give a concrete reason for a murder. How many would you say?

There are huge amounts of evidence that shows when we allow men to access womens safe spaces it is the rapists who take advantage of that fact.

Is there? What is a womens safe space? I'd struggle to think that prison is ever defined as such unless you see a womens safe space as one without men in it.

Women are, as a whole, far less likely to commit violent or sexual crimes

Thanks for teaching me the word gracile!

Is that opportunity?

Am I a more likely rapist because I'm well above average strength (ignoring sex).

Well yes. Why should a woman who has had a lifetime of sexual assault be made to share a space with males?

Because they're in prison and have chosen to live outside of societal norms. I'm not saying an (female) insider trader should live with a serial rapist (male) but two baby killers of opposite sex... I struggle to get too worked up despite claims on here that women are in prison because of their past (and alludes to this being due to men).

Should this also apply to hospitals? Sex segregated schools and groups? What about care work, is it acceptable to request a female or male carer?
What about rape victims, can they still request male or female doctors?

No.

It's hard not to sympathise with a rape victim but my husband is a surgeon. His best friend is OBGYN. If he were turned down because of his penis then he'd rightfully be offended. I think single sex schools are a terrible idea (an area I'm actually qualified in).

Why is it believeable for a transwoman to be threatened by males, but man hating for a woman to be threatened?

Because it isn't about feeling threatened, it's about automatic distrust of anyone with a willy.

At no point have I shown much sympathy for transwomen in prison for heinous crimes, I simply have no time for hypocrisy which is what I feel is being demonstrated here.

If you can't do the time and all that jazz. Not that people deserve to be raped, but many people love to quote statistics (when attacking MRAs) showing that men in prison are more likely to be raped by men. To thier mind it shows that men are the ever-present evil. To me, it shows a broken system and instead of victim blaming and segregating, society needs to be fixed.

Hearing toxic masculinity, safe spaces and the like makes me shudder.

venusinscorpio · 17/01/2017 10:14

It's a very good question, and it never gets answered.

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