Males in female prisons

[WankingMonkey]

I have noticed a fair bit of support for 'identification' over sex on MN. I am just wondering what peoples opinions are on males wanting into female prisons because they are 'trans'?

If possible, have a think, write out a reply...and [i]then[/i] read this

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/soham-child-killer-ian-huntley-9626220

As I have seen many defenses along the lines of 'noone would pretend to be a woman' and such. But here we have a clear example of this in action. And it is impossible to let 'some' do it and not others, isn't it. You can't make laws without clear boundaries of course.

I actually can't believe it has taken someone like Huntley to wake up a fair few of my friends, this is all over my facebook today with people suddenly u-turning on their previous stance...

Every thread discussing things like this you get someone screaming 'transphobic'.
Not once have I heard a viable argument as to WHY a 6' muscled man with false boobs and a 7" dick who USED IT up until he went into prison (and was quite proud of the fact) in his 'job' should be classed as a woman? A man who had not even consulted about having gender reasignment and has no intentions of doing so.

Not once have I heard WHY a woman should be happy to share a cell with someone who is a MAN who has commited violent crimes.

Unless you have actually lived your life as a woman, you are not a woman.

I have every sympathy for real body dysmorphic people, who have gone through all the councilling, hormone treatments and surgery to become what they feel they should be, and I know many who have gone about this without fuss and fanfare, not running to the papers with thier story etc. That isnt an issue.

The issue is a man 'saying' he is a woman isnt the same as being one.
I could say I am an elf, I could dress like one, glide around with a serene look on my face, etc etc but it doesnt make it so. The fact that I am 5'3" fat and frumpy would make it even more ridiculous but hey I SAY I AM so therefor I am and the world has to accomodate me.

We are on a dangerous slope when the pc brigade think that saying you feel like a woman means you can do, go anywhere that is specificaly for women. When the safety and needs of many are outweighed by the demands of one or two individuals who will brazen it out by going to the media to get sympathy and lie through thier teeth to get an easy ride.

If you really are so determined to turn a story that is clearly a total tabloid generated non-event into pearl clutching hysteria about evil trans women, nothing I say is going to change your mind.

Whether the story is true or not, it clearly opens discussion up about if this did happen. And it has happened, just with people less talked about than Huntley. Because its people less talked about its flown under the radar with a lot of people. But this is already happening, dangerous violent males being housed with females for the protection of the male.

Anotherusedname

The Huntley story might be false but this is already happening. Are you saying women have no right to be angry, appalled, shocked etc at this trend? We should just stfu about this? I think this needs to blown wide open - majority of the public aren't aware of all this.

Diggory

We already know how many misogynistic hate-filled bigots are on MN, you don't need to keep proving it.

Surely that should read "'misandrist', hate-filled etc."

It seems that the argument is based upon the fact that if you're born with a penis you're a terrible person. If you aren't you're vulnerable and should be protected from horrible rapey men. Trying to become a woman still means you're a nasty man.

I have been supportive of finding an arrangement where transwomen can be housed away from other violent male prisoners to protect them from patriarchal anger about their failure to conform to male supremacist gender norms.

Nothing sums up my comment more. This is so stupid it gives me a twitch. The only vitriol I've experienced toward trans is from nasty, bigoted (female) keyboard warriors who use phrases like 'patriarchal anger'.

Tara is a male, with male strength and male genitals

Like Caster Semenya then? She got overwhelming support on MN, didn't she?

I would not want to share a prison cell with someone with a penis.

Well, I've got a great idea... don't commit a crime! To be in a cell with Huntly, you've done something terrible. You wouldn't be in the same prison as them for a parking ticket.

This brings me on to my other idea. Put all (similar) offenders in prison together. Murderers with murderers, child abusers with child abusers, rapists with rapists, thieves with thieves... We have categories of prisons already, this is just a little further down the path.

Treating people differently because of their sexuality, sex, gender, race or other is frowned upon. Lets not.

Put all (similar) offenders in prison together. Murderers with murderers, child abusers with child abusers, rapists with rapists, thieves with thieves... We have categories of prisons already, this is just a little further down the path.

The first thing that comes to mind with this is the very very real possibility (certainty more like) of pregnancies in jail and a shit ton more rapes. There are other problems with it of course. But thats the first..but nice idea..

It seems that the argument is based upon the fact that if you're born with a penis you're a terrible person. If you aren't you're vulnerable and should be protected from horrible rapey men.
But..why do we have sex segregation?

I am quite sure noone thinks all penis bearers are terrible people. But in certain areas of life we are separated by sex. In such areas, surely sex should actually matter else whats the point?

I am amazed you've dragged Caster Semenya into this. She's had to put up with huge amounts of interference in her private life because (as far as we can know) she has an intersex condition. That's got nothing to do with being transgender.

SpeakNoWords

She has no ovaries or womb but has testes and man levels of testosterone yet 'identifies' as a woman.

There just seem to be terrible bigoted views on MN. Defending Caster but berating others. Is it the penis that causes the hate as opposed to the testicles?

Monkey

But..why do we have sex segregation?

Because men are terrible rapists and us women are special snowflakes who need to be protected at all times from their misogynistic, toxic patriarchy. Haven't you been reading this thread / MN?

I am quite sure noone thinks all penis bearers are terrible people.

Really? Hatred of men here is a close second to the hatred of 'the transagenda'. What do they have in common? Cocks!

'causes' should be 'attracts', of course.

Caster Semenya doesn't need defending, she's done nothing wrong. I'm amazed you know so much about her personal health to know the details of her physiology. She was born and brought up as a girl and woman, that's why she "identifies" as a woman.

Recognising male violence is not man hating you fool.

In point of fact, MN is NOT pro-Caster Semenya

Sorry: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2713294-to-think-Lynsey-Sharp-should-keep-her-sour-grapes-to-herself

There are different views, but it's at best balanced 50/50.

Clearly there is a large difference between an athlete identified at birth as a woman and brought up as one competing as a woman, and a sex offender who tries to change gender in prison.

Mumsnet was the very first place that opened my eyes to the whole spectrum of trans issues.

When I really began to read about this stuff, from the many brilliant and articulate women who are standing up and saying no to our erasure in terms of identity, language and safety, I hit peak trans pretty quickly.

I'd encourage others to do so. The transactivist agenda threatens every female on the planet. It is a misogyny that is so dangerous because it has gained mainstream acceptance.

Thank you to the women on here who keep on educating with such passion, reason and eloquence.

Because men are terrible rapists and us women are special snowflakes who need to be protected at all times from their misogynistic, toxic patriarchy. Haven't you been reading this thread / MN?

Sarcasm, surprise..but a serious question. Why do YOU think we have sex segregation, and is it needed?

"If you really want to explore these issues, GLAAD has a fairly decent reading list here:"

GLAAD doesn't seem like a balanced organisation at all. GLAAD was once 'Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation', but that name wasn't trans-inclusive, so they dropped the long form.

Their media awards last year noted

www.glaad.org/blog/record-number-transgender-nominees-27th-annual-glaad-media-awards

"for the first time over half of the nominees include transgender people or characters – 75 of the 147 nominees are trans-inclusive"

That doesn't seem balanced in the slightest. If trans is around 10% of the LGBT population, then a majority of the nominations concerning trans seems absurd.

I do wonder if the people posting their disdain for even discussing this topic would really like to end up in a prison cell with a male-bodied person. i am guessing not, but I am guessing they are assuming it own't happen to them. i am relatively sure I won't end up in prison, at least I am not doing anything at the moment to make that happen!

But I do know that the majority of women in prison are in for a variety of non-violent offences, and are a very vulnerable part of the population.

Actually discussing this issue properly, not popping on to try and shut down speech, would be helpful.

There are genuine trans women out there who do need to be housed safely, how can that be done?

And there are also violent males identifying as women, people already in prison.

Surely debate on this subject is needed.

This may be of interest although may be known by many.

British Association Of Gender Identity Specialists - written evidence | PDF version (PDF143 KB)

Is a letter to Maria Miller from Dr. James Barrett (President, British Association of Gender Identity Specialists) dated 20 August 2015

The letter is ref TRA0149 and can be found at

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/women-and-equalities-committee/inquiries/parliament-2015/transgender-equality/publications/

Once you click on the web page you go to the bottom, it says "Written evidence",

and you need to click

“View all”

and then order by reference number to easily find ref TRA0149

One of the key bits to worry about in this long letter is about half way down where it says...

"...the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this."

So this letter went to Maria Miller a long time ago from a very reliable source, so none of this should be news!

Ouriana

aliPartout you are argueing we do not need sex segregation. That women have nothing to fear from men.

There are two assertions there so I'd say.

We do not need sex segregation. Agreed.

That women have nothing to fear from men. Agreed.*

That is brilliant. It means we can keep prisons how they are and transwomen can stay in male prisons.

Yes and no. I was advocating segregating prisons by 'type of crime' as is done already and not by sex (as is also done). Sex offenders together. White collar together etc.

If they dont like it they can follow your brilliant idea and not commit crimes.

I'm glad we agree!

The reason for our different standpoints is you view everything as a need to protect women whereas I think I look at things from a wider standpoint. Perhaps the old egalitarian vs feminism arguement.

When I really began to read about this stuff, from the many brilliant and articulate women who are standing up and saying no to our erasure in terms of identity, language and safety, I hit peak trans pretty quickly.

They have a different language now?

I'd encourage others to do so. The transactivist agenda threatens every female on the planet. It is a misogyny that is so dangerous because it has gained mainstream acceptance.

How the fuck do you get from women hating transwomen to it being a misogyny? That's impressive! You realise not all ills can be blamed on men, right?

Monkey

Why do YOU think we have sex segregation, and is it needed?

I think we have sex segregation because women want equality until it suits them better not to have it ie. "Yes, I'm a dangerous child killer but keep him away from me. They have a penis and are therefore more dangerous." It's that kind of thinking that made me stop being a feminist years ago and am embarrassed to be called so.

I believe in equality. I've faced difficulties in life (born late 60s) because I'm a woman. Others face difficulties because they're a man, gay, black, ginger, vegetarian, Scouser... We have our lot and make the best of it. We play to our strengths and refuse to accept we're weaker for other 'traits'.

The very facts that people can mention 'peak trans' without feeling embarassed yet if I mentioned 'peak black' meaning I've reached my maximum sympathy for those different to me, I'd very rightly be jumped on.

There's a strong vein of misandry in all these trans threads and that's what riles me.

*In the same way we could say children have nothing to fear from their mothers.

All offenders are required to undertake offender behaviour programmes in order to aid their rehabilitation- programmes vary dependent on their offending risk factors and these risk factors vary greatly between male and female offenders- their motivations for offending tend to be very, very different so a "one prison fits all" approach really wouldn't work if you actually want to help anyone- fine if you just want to lock people up but punishing isn't what prison is for and hasn't been for long time.

They have a different language now?

Yes, haven't you noticed? Woman apparently no longer means adult human female, the biological sex which produces eggs and gestates young. We apparently need a new word to describe those humans formerly known as women. You know, when we need to discuss issues which affect them exclusively because of their biology. The word woman, which we all understood, now means something completely different, something to do with feelings and liking high heels, hair extensions and nail varnish I think. Tricky, I mean I definitely gestated young, but I don't really go much on the other stuff, and weirdly my pink lady brain which should be thinking about shopping and giggling with my friends is so good at maths and science people actually pay me money to do it.

ailpartout actually quite a few children do fear their mothers, with good reason.

Ail And I'm sure anyone who works in the prison service could tell you why it's there are very good reasons why male and female prisoners are segregated.
But well done to you, who has no reason to fear men. Try telling that to the (approx) 2 women per week who are murdered by their male partners. Then seeing as how you believe in equality, ask the 2 (approx) men /week who are murdered by their female partners.
But you won't be able to do that, will you? Because those 2 men/ week don't exist. That's because male on female violence is proportionately much higher than female on male violence , at every level.
But congratulations on thinking you're equal.

noeffingidea

So, you aren't for equality then? Segregation all the way... or is that until you feel equality suits you better.

Segregation for arguably valid reasons of safety, dignity and privacy is not the same as inequality. You appear to be a little confused.