Males in female prisons

[WankingMonkey]

I have noticed a fair bit of support for 'identification' over sex on MN. I am just wondering what peoples opinions are on males wanting into female prisons because they are 'trans'?

If possible, have a think, write out a reply...and [i]then[/i] read this

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/soham-child-killer-ian-huntley-9626220

As I have seen many defenses along the lines of 'noone would pretend to be a woman' and such. But here we have a clear example of this in action. And it is impossible to let 'some' do it and not others, isn't it. You can't make laws without clear boundaries of course.

I actually can't believe it has taken someone like Huntley to wake up a fair few of my friends, this is all over my facebook today with people suddenly u-turning on their previous stance...

Female not feel .

You'd get rid of para sports too presumably?

No person should be forced to have a HCP they're not comfortable with examine them or perform a procedure on them, even if it's 'prejudice' due to sex, race, etc. The same way saying "I don't date short men/trans women:red heads" isn't necessarily pleasant or fair, but the alternative of being forced to do thing with your body you don't want to do, is far far worse.

I also don't believe this Huntley story is true, but it does pose a relevant question - should males be allowed in female prisons? It looks like it will be happening in Canada soon, so it isn't reaching for the stars to assume it could happen here one day as well

I'd respect a patient's right to a HCP of their choice, regardless of if that patient is male or female.

DH had a suspected lump on his testicles and got it checked at the doctors. He requested a male doctor, because he felt more comfortable with someone who also has testicles examining him. Guess that makes him a raging sexist too?

Do you mean a hospital might only have male doctors in A and E?

Or female, yes. Interesting you jumped straight to "male only".

I said that someone who is there "due to crime" should be accommodated if at all possible" and others too. I said I'd possibly lose patience / patients with someone who had a preference based on their holy book.

A right to request isn't really a right at all, is it?

If something makes someones life easier with no cost to another then there's no debate, it should be accommodated. If there is a cost (at the expense of another) then there needs to be a value judgement.

speak

What kind of brain differences do you think there are between men and women?

I, over my decades of experience, have seen many, many examples of typical boy and typical girl behaviour.

Whilst opponents argue it comes down to gendering in the womb (or wherever), I think it's as biological as you do strength and pelvis weight.

Some examples include:

girls are more socially aware at a younger age

boys are more adventurous

boys like to see how things work

girls role play in scenarios where they can evaluate others' reactions

boys are more competitive

girls are more reflective

boys are upset if they don't win

girls are upset if they feel they let the team down

boys are quick to forgive

girls analyse social structures

girls understand relationships

boys care less material appearance

boys care about strength and muscle mass

girls want praise from their teacher

boys want recognition from their class

girls are more buoyed by praise

boys seek one-on-one relationships

girls have broader, shallower understanding across the curriculum

boys have deeper but more specific

girls tend to be all round achievers

boys tend to specifi their strengths at an early age

There's a long list...

There is no supporting evidence for what you have listed as supposed brain differences between boys and girls/men and women. There is plenty of evidence that there are physical differences between men and women, pelvis size and shape being one of them.

Ouriana

You have as much proof as I do.

Whilst opponents argue it comes down to gendering in the womb (or wherever)

I'm basing mine on decades of experience, across different eras, cultures and continents.

You are basing yours on an '-ism'.

You're ignorant and insensitive if you think rape victims only ought to be accommodated in their preference for a internal exam by a woman HCP on the day of their rape,

But I think we've established that you have very little empathy for other women.

venusinscorpio

Feel free to invent my opinions if it makes you feel better.

I said that the NHS can't be expected to have either sex Drs on call just in case.

I said I'd rather a single Dr and extra funds for medication if that was what made sense. You turned that into a lack of empathy for poor women. Grow up.

ailPartout - I've just read your list of "boy things" and "girl things" - so if you have a child who doesn't fit into your classifications (as DD1 doesn't, what with her Maths degree, job in stats, very small group of friends, totally uninterested in teachers if they couldn't explain maths to her), what are you saying? That they're not a boy/girl? That they're trans? Or that your sterepotypes are just that and are irrelevant to the majority of people? and a load of bollocks

Do you really want men and women to compete in the same races?

What do you think that will do to women's sport?

So, if we change rape to include 'not rape' as per your arguement and ever -changing goalposts, why is a man less important than a women? For the sake of this we're defining a man differently as it's currently wrong!

A man isn't less important a victim at all. Why do you assume that's what I think? All I am pointing out is that a man is more likely to be the perpetrator and a woman more likely to be the victim.

I'm basing mine on decades of experience, across different eras, cultures and continents.

Not science then?

The problem is the current state of the prison service is no good for anyone. Realistically there isn't the money to create new wings of prisons or new prisons altogether.

What are the barriers currently to keeping transwomen safe in male prisons?

I don't think it matters if a transgender woman is sent to a female prison. Either we allow people to change their gender or we don't. If someone can legally change their gender, then that should be it - they are their new gender, and must be treated as if they were the same as someone born of that gender. End of.

The argument about whether people should be or even are able to change gender is a separate question. But either it is possible, or it isn't. There should be no option for "She was born male but is now female, except in the case of serving time in prison because in that regard 'she' is still a 'he'." By definition, this means the person is not a woman after all, so why should (s)he be treated as one in other regards?

Why do you think it doesn't matter?

Prisons are sex segregated, not gender segregated. You can change your gender presentation but you can't change your sex.

ail "Or female, yes. Interesting you jumped straight to "male only"

No idea what this means?

Your long list of what you think applies to males it females is not based on biology but socialization.

I don't think there is any evidence girls are naturally more this or that or boys naturally more this or that, or vice versa on terms of personality.

There is evidence boys are stronger, bigger, faster. That's biology.

My interest in the differences is where they disadvantage any children or adults. Boys are disadvantaged by gender stereotyping too. As are men.

My son loves dancing but won't join a dance group. Is it just because he wants to be at home or because he feels it is not for boys? I shall watch and see.

But contrast this to the adult woman I know trapped by a violent abusive partner.

There are definitely males disadvantageed by patriarchy but not to the extent of females.

Society is not equal. I am the equal of any male, just in our society this is not recognised. So sex segregation is a tiny step to help in this very unequal society.

Your disdain for women wanting some degree of protection seems to show a real lack of concern. What if the unavailability of a female doctor meant a woman could not see a doctor? Or vice versa.

Re GPs www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2415.aspx?CategoryID=68

"I don't think it matters if a transgender woman is sent to a female prison. Either we allow people to change their gender or we don't. If someone can legally change their gender, then that should be it - they are their new gender, and must be treated as if they were the same as someone born of that gender. End of."

Have you actually read this thread?

Like the prisoner who first decided he was called 'His Majesty', and then later decided he was a woman and wanted to be strip-searched by women.

There is no 'end of'.

What there is a lot of devious, violent sex offenders who are in ever growing numbers, becoming transwomen in prison (as well as after committing offences as men)

No ail, you grudgingly agreed that a woman should be accommodated in her request "if she were "there due to a crime". So as a rape survivor if I am not "there due to a crime" i.e. on that specific day I shouldn't be? How about you grow up and stop flip flopping in your silly arguments?