Males in female prisons

[WankingMonkey]

I have noticed a fair bit of support for 'identification' over sex on MN. I am just wondering what peoples opinions are on males wanting into female prisons because they are 'trans'?

If possible, have a think, write out a reply...and [i]then[/i] read this

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/soham-child-killer-ian-huntley-9626220

As I have seen many defenses along the lines of 'noone would pretend to be a woman' and such. But here we have a clear example of this in action. And it is impossible to let 'some' do it and not others, isn't it. You can't make laws without clear boundaries of course.

I actually can't believe it has taken someone like Huntley to wake up a fair few of my friends, this is all over my facebook today with people suddenly u-turning on their previous stance...

I didnt know MRA's were opposed to all forms of sex segregation in the interests of equality.
Thats completely batshit, and confirms DS's assertion that 'they are just trolls Mum'.

I work in the NHS and there is absolutely no protocol to have an on-call doctor in case a patient isn't happy with the male or female on hand. There would never be the resources to accommodate this.

What does happen is that you have the right to request a male or female doctor or HCP. If there are none on hand at the time, you can wait or come back another day. They wouldn't phone the on-call doctor at all.

An example - I was in maternity unit yesterday as I thought I was in labour (bloody contractions stopped soon as I got there ) and I was happy to have a student midwife there. Midwife asked, before they came in the room, if I minded that a male student came in to examine my cervix. I said I did mine, and they found a female student. Had there not been a female student I'd have had no student at all, and just stuck with the midwife.

I didn't have to justify why I didn't want a male student, nor should I, but as a patient I had the right to request a female student. If this had been a male qualified midwife I'd have waited until a female one became available. Had for example I been unconscious and it was an emergency I'd have had little choice if only a male was available, but I could live with that as my life would be more important than my comfort. But when I do have an option to make decisions about my comfort and safety, I will choose one that suits me.

On the topic of prisons, I think everyone has the right to safety in prison no matter what they are they for. Certain categories of prisoner are always going to need different treatment in order to keep both them and the general prison population safe. IMO trans gender people are going to be in that category. I read the discrimination laws to mean that trans gender prisoners have the same rights to protection, food, whatever education is going etc. as the general prison population. Not that they have to be sited in identical circumstances, and I don't believe it would always be safe for them to be so situated.

Morphene I agree with you, all prisoners should be safe.

OK I never said all murderers rape but come on..we know how common rape is in mens jails and are we really going to pretend that women wont be first choice for these people, given even small blokes are at huge risk?

As you've defined classes Wanking (and thank you for being an entirely reasonable person with a different opinion), does this mean women can be treated differently due to our differences in other walks of life?

IMO, we are different. But theres not really anything we can do about it. Men (as a group, not on an individual level) are bigger and stronger than women as the main point. In certain areas of life, yes I think its fine to treat males and females differently as biology kind of demands it.

and it's not worth anyone saying that they don't have an issue with trans people as they get shouted down.

I don't 'have an issue' with trans people. Why is it assumed that disagreeing with some of the trans narative means you have a problem with the people themselves? I simply don't think females should give up their rights for nothing but feelings. Note trans men do not argue for getting into male prisons. All the trans women who talk about wanting access to female areas...and ONE trans man is shown as proof of transmen doing it. One, is all that has been found in years. There must be a reason for that..

Not agreeing with every aspect of transgender issues does not mean anyone 'has an issue with trans people' at all. Its actually rather infuriating when people keep saying this without understanding the actual argument. Its nearly as bad as those who scream 'transphobe' then run away instead of engaging.

Italian

What if the unavailability of a female doctor meant a woman could not see a doctor? Or vice versa.

The would be able to see a Dr. They would be choosing not to see one. Cherry explained that they can come back at a time when one is available. I know not all GP surgeries have either sex Drs available at any time.

Your long list of what you think applies to males it females is not based on biology but socialization.

That is your opinion. You have no evidence to support it. I am basing mine on years of professional observation.

Ourina

Sex segregation is what we wish to keep.

I realise that. Segregation and a taller box to stand on as, despite men and women being equal, we ignore that when it suits us and say, no, actually we aren't equal and deserve special measures.

DJBaggy

I didnt know MRA's were opposed to all forms of sex segregation in the interests of equality.

I would love to have it explained why MRA is such a derisive term. Will you do it? Men sacrifice their rights because they are men?

That is your opinion. You have no evidence to support it. I am basing mine on years of professional observation.

You have no actual evidence either. It's your opinion. Science says otherwise.

There are several areas where males are under represented, and that isn't right and we are doing something about that - it's the right thing to do, given men and women are equal in everything other than physiology.

There are many more examples where women are at a disadvantage, despite being equal. What's wrong with addressing that?

@ailpartout could you please give a factual definition of a human female?

Meaning no disrespect to ail who is arguing very politely and logically

But she is never going to change her mind or be convinced by any of the arguments that its just going round in circles

and obviously the same thing for the feminists arguing

Unless everyone is really enjoying themselves in which case forget i spoke...i will just piss off

ail "Men sacrifice their rights because they are men?" What sacrifices are you speaking of.

Rufus there may others reading who are reading and being swayed by arguments either way.

I cannot see it as wrong to debate these things.

Ail what would you think makes human females more susceptible to praise then males? You see the reasons for males being bigger, faster, stronger as a sex class are easily visible and testable. The praise thing. Not so much. Actually not at all.

In what professional capacity, may I ask. (Feel free not to answer)

Didnt say it was wrong italian

Pissing off now

Very true rufus.

A couple more points I'd like to answer before moving on

I am mostly enjoying it as it's (yet) to turn into a bunfight. When the majority are intelligent, it's easy to ignore the stupid individuals.

twitchy

Science says otherwise.

No it doesn't. Science is unsure either way. My PhD was broadly about first language acquisition. We (scientists) are unsure as to exactly how the brain works. It is a black box. We understand the input and output but are still a long way from understanding what happens to the input. Whilst not really an aspect of my study, there were noticeable differences between boys and girls. Remember, this was first language so before society can be 'blamed' for differences in the sexes.

TwoGoats

I guess it has to do with having genitalia for carrying babies. A male is one who has the genitals to produce sperm. Does a post-op man become a female? They can't produce sperm any more. Semenya had testes yet is classed as a woman. Do you stop being a woman if you have your ovaries removed?

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.

I'm suggesting we don't need segregation and therefore definitions are not necessary. Found guilty of a particular level of crime is what's needed.

ail "Men sacrifice their rights because they are men?" What sacrifices are you speaking of.

No, you misunderstood. That was in repsonse to the use of MRA as an insult. Doesn't that suggest that advocating mens rights is a bad thing and that their rights are not to be championed or protected.

Ail what would you think makes human females more susceptible to praise then males?

Did I say susceptible? In my 'list', I said "girls want praise from their teacher". They do. Boys are more interested in peer approval but not really that much on the whole. Girls are more likely to tell you about something they've done they feel is praiseworthy in the hope of receiving some. I suspect it is to do with their higher EQ.

In what professional capacity, may I ask.

Firstly scientific - 1st lang. acquisition. Secondly, the majority of my professional life, as a headmistress.

'Boys care about strength and muscle mass' because they have more in the first place. Same as females have more fat. Males have a narrower pelvis. Certain things cannot be changed regardless of the brain.
Anyway our brains and bodies are not separate entities - they are connected.

I dont find equality a difficult term to understand. It does not mean 'identical'. I fail to see how a scientist and educator can manage to twist it around so much.

'Being treated with equal respect, in respect of our differences' is a better starting point than 'identical'
And yes, women dont want to be lumped in with aggressive men.

There is a fair amount of iffy science about and some very dodgy psychology.
Saying I am a scientist doesn't command respect in itself!
The MMR scandal is a good example of why we should always ask questions of research.

Rufus I did not say you said it was wrong. I was explaining why I thought it useful to continue.

DJBaggySmalls

Are you still unable to explain why MRA is an insult?

And yes, women dont want to be lumped in with aggressive men

No one wants to be lumped in with aggressive people of either sex. One of the myriad of reasons I wouldn't do something which risked incarceration!

Kennington

I don't understand the relevance of a lot of what you've posted. Did you allude to the fact you're against vaccinations?

"When the majority are intelligent, it's easy to ignore the stupid individuals" am now desperately trying to work out if am in smart majority or thick minority!

ail "...was first language so before society can be 'blamed' for differences in the sexes"

My (limited) understating is that differences are expressed from the word go, Eg from the time people know of they are having a boy or girl.

To me the need to protect men's rights is a bit like the need to protect white people's rights (quite a small need).

My point about praise (did not get the wording wrong on purpose, am on phone and harder to look) was why would one sex behave that way, unless socialised to do so -e.g. girls socialised to look for praise from those above them, boys not to consider such worth from those 'above them', how could this be a biological thing?

ailPartout
Only you read it as an insult.
So I do not have to answer that, any more than you have to answer the question of why you wont tackle the issue of male violence, and concentrate on why women dont defend themselves more effectively.

Just been looking up for some evidence to back up my statement "My (limited) understating is that differences are expressed from the word go, Eg from the time people know of they are having a boy or girl."

It's my belief, which does seem to be backed up, that if parents know the sex of their baby in the before the baby is born some mums (and presumably some dads too) have already worked out scenarios for their child based on stereotypes. Or so it seems. It also seems strange these would not be communicated to baby in some way. The baby can hear before they are even born.

Finding out the sex of your baby - the pros and cons

"Bond with your unborn baby
Research suggests that finding out the sex of your baby early can help you bond.

‘If for example, you felt sure you were having a boy, and started imagining playing football with him, finding out you are having a girl can help you start to imagine more accurate scenarios,’ says Sandra. Buy a super cute boy or girl outfit to kickstart your day dream."

I've heard that when mothers find out they are having a girl they talk more to the baby than if they find out they are having a boy. But I cannot find a reference for it. Can anyone?

Certainly once children are out of the womb it does seem mothers treat girls and boys differently. How quickly, I do not know but I wonder if there is ever a point when parents treat their kids in a neutral way once they know the sex of the baby. I almost feel that would need to be learnt. Not to deny that they are a boy or a girl but not to make assumptions in their attitude and language based on the baby’s sex.

I am not blaming mothers, they are (like a lot of society) just perpetuating what we all do unconsciously, treating males and females differently. I wonder if this means we are, in a sense, preparing them for different roles in life even if we have not chosen those roles for ourselves.

And it is not just mums who do this, dads, grandparents, teachers etc also do it.

A quick look at Development Infancy through Adolescence Page 249 Gender Socialization, Laurence Steinberg, ‎Deborah Lowe Vandell, ‎Marc H. Bornstein - 2010 shows that these perceived differences are encouraged, or we could say created, by parents and others.

the sex of their baby before the baby is born...