To not want to punish ds for this 'rudeness' when visiting relatives?

[woundedplacerias]

I took my dc, aged 9 & 7, to visit my parents and another elderly relative last weekend. It is a 3 hour drive away and we went straight to a pub where they were buying us lunch. Obviously, a pub meal straight after a long drive wasn't ideal, but logistics meant it was the least worst option.

Dc took books and small figures to the pub and were really very good. However, the eldest wasn't very talkative, perhaps to the point of coming across as a bit rude. He was always a very talkative child and loved talking to adults. However, as he has got older he has become a little more circumspect, and we don't really see these people often, especially the elderly relative as she doesn't travel anymore, so I think he felt a bit awkward.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them. Meanwhile, ds2 was right on form, holding forth on all manner of topics and generally being really chatty and engaging. It was like they had done a role reversal from how they were a couple of years ago, when ds1 used to talk non-stop and ds2 was incredibly shy. I feel like ds1 will have been very aware of this and comparing himself unfavourably to ds2, as there is a lot of competition between them at the moment and he is struggling a bit with accepting that ds2 is just as good as him at a lot of things. I am obviously working on that with him.

After lunch we went back to the elderly person's flat, where things carried on more or less the same. I allowed ds1 a bit of time on his tablet as no one was really talking much to him anyway. Elderly relative is absolutely lovely, but not really up to engaging a child who is being quite hard work anymore and my parents are not that great with children tbh. I feel like he needed one of them to go and sit next to him and get him talking about a topic he is really interested in, but no one did.

Now I have just spoken to my mum on the phone and she has gone on and on about what is 'wrong with' ds1, I shouldn't let him get away with being so rude etc etc. I feel like he felt uncomfortable, and wasn't being rude. No one made an effort with him in fact (I only blame my parents for this). AIBU?

He was incredibly rude. Assume he's NT or you would have said so, his manners are appalling.
However, was he car sick? That would be the downside of the very long car journey, perhaps a bit of fresh air in between that and the lunch might have helped.
But still, rude, way old enough to know better, should not have had a tablet at the table, and should have been punished.

When we left, my DM said to him 'Thank you for your company, well ....your presence anyway' and I could see him look really crestfallen because I knew how much of an effort he'd made.

Gosh what harsh responses! Sounds like a pretty miserable day for the kids - a long car journey, a pub lunch and sitting in an elderly person's flat

I agree. And it would help if people who can't hear very well would use hearing aids. I had this with my grandmother - and my father. They can't hear and then they get annoyed with you for not talking loudly enough. I'm shouting! It's actually quite hard to shout all the time.

I do agree with no screens when visiting elderly relatives. A book is ok. The conversation isn't usually very interesting for kids and it's fine for them to read if the visit is more than an hour or so.

I can't believe how many people think a child of nine should socialise with older people all that time with no respite. How many of you saying that could spend all those hours playing in the playground with a group of nine year olds and really engage? I know I couldn't. Do people really not treat children like children anymore? My dad's family used to have big gatherings and all I can remember is sitting on the stairs with my cousins bored to death.

YANBU. After a long boring car journey and then having to sit down again in a restaurant for ages with elderly people who show little interest in him why should he behave like an adult and be socially perfect?
Don't make a big deal of it but just say next time he's in a similar situation remember to be polite even if he's bored. And remind him on the way there.
When my 3 DC were younger there were no gadgets but they'd sit together and read, draw, and chat to each other. I didn't expect them to be mini adults.
DGC bring their iPads and after a meal they can listen to or play on them quietly while the adults socialise.
Assuming your DC are generally polite I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.
As a reserved child I hated having to socialise with people I didn't know so I'm with your DS on this one.

I don't think he should be punished at all. It doesn't sound like he was rude, it sounds like your mother was rude for carrying on about it. It was a boring long day if he's not interested in that type of socialising and his grandparents can't hear, etc.

He is who he is, if he doesn't like conversing then why make him, it will just put him off it more in the long run.

I haven't read the whole thread as a disclaimer. I agree with deblet

I think it sounds like your mother is a hit rubbish with children sadly. My parents are similar. No attempt to engage my kids. I see other grandparents behave so differently!

I have an 8 year old and after a couple of hours in the car would really need some space to run around. We met up with childfree friends a couple of hours away the other day and planned to meet at a park as we knew the kids would have the freedom to play and we could get a coffee and chat etc.

When we used to visit in a nursing home they had colouring (a bit younger) and it was really tricky for them not to fidget.

Useful tip! I just remembered that when we used to meet up for family occasions which meant a two hour drive, those of us with DC would meet up much earlier in a park near the venue to let the DC have a run around and play, then fruit and snacks in the car. Kids are always more amenable when they've been exercised, fed and watered and you know you won't actually be getting any food for quite a while after getting to a restaurant.

I agree with stonecircle.
Lots of very overly harsh opinions.
He is only 9 for goodness sake!
Perhaps he had a very tiring week at school and didn't feel quite up to sitting listening and chatting to people after a long car journey.

I don't think he was being rude....shy perhaps but not rude.
Rude would have been him playing up and being purposely naughty but to be cross with him for being quiet?? Perhaps he is coming down with a bug and just felt out of sorts.

Wouldnt worry about it at all....its only one day.
Maybe talk to him about how he was feeling instead of assuming he was being rude? If he says he wasn't bored, then have a chat about how some adult visits are boring but something we have to do from time to time.

When I was a child about your DS's age, and my sister was about the age of your younger, we spent 3 Sundays out of 4 at our maternal grandparents. Both GPs were funny, loving and warm and although the conversation was generally between the adults and tended to focus on "You remember Mrs Thing, she used to work in the bakery? Well you'll never guess what..." my sister and I used to play happily on the floor with the dozens of toys, building blocks, costumes etc that my GP kept for when children came round. Because young children simply cannot be expected to sit silently and look interested in adult conversation when it's about people and things who they have no knowledge of!

The 4th Sunday of every month, we used to go to my paternal grandmother, which we all hated. My dad would usually refuse to go. My mum would spend the entire visit chain-smoking with a rictus grin on her face while our "Nunahh" (her idea of the posh way to say nanna!) chuntered on about how the blacks were ruining this country, and other such Daily Mail-esque social commentary.

In the meantime my sister and I were expected to sit quietly on the settee or the floor, without asking questions, playing games, or saying anything, but god forbid we look bored as then we were accused of sulking.

After my parents divorced my sister and I never saw "Nunnahh" again, thankfully.

God that was cathartic... anyway OP I would chat to your son about how he felt, and discuss some techniques he could try in future so that when he feels awkward, he has some things to say to fall back on. You could also say "Do you think Auntie Annie may have been a bit hurt that you didn't speak to her?" - he's 9, so he can surely put himself in her shoes.

Punish, no. If you punish an introverted child for being an introvert, they are going to find social situations even more difficult.

Find it hard to credit some PPs, honestly. "That level of rudeness" - seriously? He was quiet and withdrawn and his body language (turning back) was below par. He didn't sit there throwing food at people and calling them twats!

I was very socially awkward as a child. Painfully shy and unable to maintain eye contact or conversation. I was like it from the ages of 6 until my early teens. I was just accepted! My parents tried to encourage me to mix and be social but it was really painful for me. I'm the complete opposite now, chatty friendly and happy to mix with everyone and anyone. Yes some of the things your son did was rude but not in a malicious way but in more of a socially awkward pre teen way! I'm normally a stickler for good manners and behaviour but I can see inside this situation a bit more. My parents way of dealing with me was probably the opposite of the way I would deal with me i.e. I would punish whereas I was just left to it and you couldn't get a more confident person than me now. I guess some parents don't have to deal with children who are shyer than average. My 9 year old son is confident and loves chatting to people. I feel you are getting a harsh time here as I Never say that normally. Apologies to the other adults if needed but don't punish- let him be.

was bored I meant

There is a big area between being 'punished' and saying nothing. I'd have had a chat with one of my DCs if they behaved like the OPs lad (which is what she did) but I wouldnt dream of punishing them.

I'd also think about strategies for future situations such as a pre-visit prep talk, playing games at the table which involve everyone or possibly allowing the kids to play a game together.

He was rude, but to be fair driving 3 hours only to spend yet more hours listening to older relatives talk (and presumably then driving for 3 hours again) is a 9-year-old's idea of hell. (It's also pretty close to mine )

Sounds like a pretty miserable day for the kids - a long car journey, a pub lunch and sitting in an elderly person's flat

I completely agree.

He was incredibly rude. Assume he's NT or you would have said so, his manners are appalling.

Are you reading a different thread to me? He sat quietly, answered when spoken to and occasionally moved into a position where his back was turned. In what world is this "incredibly rude" or "appalling"?

I think you read the first few piling in posts and rushed to get in there too, typical AIBU.

It's a difficult one. I don't think he was being intentionally rude, he was probably just feeling shy and awkward. I remember feeling like that with elderly relatives I didn't really know when I was young.

I think maybe you just need a gentle chat with him and explain that this lady felt that he was being rude and have a conversation about how he feels and get him to understand how others perceived his behaviour.

Next time you're going to be in a situation like this you could maybe prep in advance and lay out what you're expecting in terms of good manners and reward him if he does what you've asked.

It's not easy though I know, 9 year old boys can be incredibly stubborn

I think his behaviour was fair enough. If he's shy or nervous then people having a go at him for that will just make him more shy and more nervous in the future. Telling him "you need to come out of your shell" or that he is "rude to be quiet" is the sort of bullshit that helps nobody actually overcome their shyness or awkwardness around someone who is pretty much a stranger.

People confuse shyness with arrogance. Being reserved or anxious around people can come across as looking disinterested or aloof. It's ironic that people seem to make excuses for those who really are arrogant, using things like anxiety or shyness as an excuse ("He's over-compensating") but attack those who are genuinely shy.

Being shy is not rude, it's a disability. Attacking someone for being shy is as offensive as having a go at a child born with no legs because they use a wheelchair.

I agree landlock. There is a huge spectrum between punishing him, and excusing his behaviour.

FWIW I was that socially awkward child at 9 years old. I remember being punished for what was probably similar behaviour - coming across as surly and rude. This was back in the 60s when punishments were smacking, being yelled at etc

Do I think that helped? No. Absolutely not.

BUT I think it would also have been wrong of my parents to just make excuses for me and not confront the issue. Being punished was horrid, but at least it woke me up to the fact that other people have feelings too, and that a basic level of common courtesy is important. Of course, it would have been far better to have been taught that by having it explained to me in a constructive way, rather than punishing me into realising it.

You are doing your son no favours by starting a thread and then refusing to accept that he may have been in the wrong at all.

And as for all the posts about the long car journey- Christ, at least nowadays there are tablets, audio books, cds or Bluetooth! Anyone remember a typical journey in the 60s? Not even a car radio!

It could be a social anxiety disorder but at 9, unless he has aspergers or similar he is old enough to engage in a little parent and son chat in which you could tell him its rude to not look somebody in the eyes when talking to them.

I had two kids who can manage 2.5 hours ti visit pil and sit and eat a meal with them. Ine of them is five.

Sometimes on 'our Saturday' we put ourselves out to visit people we are related too. And yes i expect the kids to as well.

If the Ops son is shy to the point its a disability, like some posters are suggesting, the adults would have probably upset him by if they kept trying.

This child is 9. Not a toddler.

I do agree there us a huge gap between not doing anything and excusing and punishing. It doesnt have to be one or the other. There is loads that is inbetween these that could be applied here.

MrsGame I totally agree about the piling in. I love MumsNet but AIBU is notorious for the first few posts defining how the thread goes. The first poster says that the OP's DS was rude and it then becomes a battle to be the most outraged at how rude he was - his behaviour is appallingly rude, the world doesn't revolve around him, step up and be a parent, sort this out now or you'll have a total brat of a teenager on your hands, no wonder kids today have no manners, you let him have a tablet for 15 minutes! appalling entitled behaviour, when I was 9, I knew how to behave in public, I would never stand for this etc etc. Depressingly predictable. I am so glad that some sensible posters eventually arrived.

I think 9 year olds who are can't be arsed to make eye contact because they're ill mannered are far more rare than 9 year olds who have something else going on. Eye contact comes naturally, when it doesn't I wouldn't immediately be shouting about punishing for bad manners. I would be wondering why and looking into reasons for it.

I do however think this issue is hard. Some people are so unbearably shy and almost adopy selective mutism.

The world rewards out going, confidant, vivacious people, so when you are shy and introverted it makes it very hard. Lets face it, we all want to be liked and we want our kids to be liked. If you teach your son that a smile, nod or even one word answer is better and will convey to the person that they are responding to them.

I'm another vote for the jobs! I was a shy child and to an extent would still be now, I really don't much like social interaction out of my 'normal circle' even now and one of my best ways of dealing with feeling awkward is to be busy. Offer to clear up, make cups of tea and coffee, wash up cups etc it makes me feel useful and gives me an escape, also by lifting or giving out cups etc gives a sort of 'in' with chat and breaks the ice for me