Some one at the Home Office hasn't thought this through properly

[liberia03]

Wondering if we could have a compassionate thread about UK mothers being told by they may have to leave the country, despite having brought up families here.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/14/dutchwoman-resident-in-uk-for-30-years-may-have-to-leave-after-brexit

She was referring to British citizens bringing their non-EEA spouse 5notrumps.

I wonder if the referendum result would've been different had more people understood that this is what would happen?

My experience is that they did know, they just didn't care. Before the referendum it was dismissed as 'project fear'. After the referendum it's dismissed as being 'your own fault/what you get if you choose to abandon your country'.

She won't be deported.

If she reads the guidance notes properly she will find that she can satisfy the health insurance requirements by getting an EHIC from the Netherlands.

Also it is unlikely that she will need a PR card. The letters she has received probably set out the current position correctly but the government has made it clear that it wants the EU to guarantee that UK citizens currently residing elsewhere in the EU can remain and that, once that is agreed, EU citizens currently residing in the UK will be guaranteed the right to remain. The government wanted to agree this with the EU in advance of negotiations but the EU refused. However, the chances of the EU continuing to refuse once the negotiations are under way are minimal.

Ah silent I should have added the family member part. The UK does remove some EU nationals, but a very small amount in the grand scheme of things.

I don't understand why people are surprised at how messy this all is. Other than they really didn't less to any of the sensible arguments being put forward in the run up to the referendum.... oh wait....

*listen

JustKeepPaddling
As long as you've worked here for 5 years you can apply for permanent residence. The insurance only applies to students and self-sufficient people (eg non-working spouses)

As far as I know the realty right do not include having a private health insurance though.

And you CAN live all your life in a country and not want to have that citizenship. Why should you?
DO you really think that because you have lived 10years somewhere, you then stop feeling like and only
Does it also applies to British people living in Europe who never have 'exercise their treaty rights' or have asked for the citizenship of the country of origin? Because in that case, these people aren't really British anymore and should just have asked for the citizenship of the country where they are living. And though if they now have to come back to the uk with no job. They should have planned, shouldn't they?

Except that I am sure that no one would ever say that from a British expat. They are expat (that GOOD, not immigrants which is BAD). And they will still be British, even after 10 or 20 years in that country....

One problem. Two rules.
Isn't that what othering is too?

martians your post reminded me of this!

The very fact people are being told to leave their homes is terrifying and, I believe, a direct result of the leave vote. People who voted leave voted for our country to be stripped of its eu privileges (which include the diverse families we see both here and abroad) whether they say they "didn't want this" or not.

EU nationals mostly don't get removed unless for criminal reasons.

My experience is that they did know, they just didn't care. Before the referendum it was dismissed as 'project fear'. After the referendum it's dismissed as being 'your own fault/what you get if you choose to abandon your country'.

Hmm. I agree with some of that, but I genuinely do have difficulty believing that most people understood that the Dutch SAHM/carer who's been told to make plans to depart doesn't technically have the legal right to remain at present. It can be difficult enough getting the various benefits authorities to understand things like that, let alone private citizens.

I know there are people who thought that all non-British people would have to leave as soon as the result was in, which I suppose would include the Dutch lady, but I don't think that was quite the same thing. I think perhaps that's the sort of attitude you're referring to here? But it came from a general ignorance and bigotry rather than understanding the difference between that Dutch lady's position now and what it would be if she did a couple of shifts a week in Asda too.

Actually sparly I do have major doubt if this rule about the insurance also doesn't apply when you don't earn less than what they think is OK (think self eomlpoyed people).
It also applies to people who don't have continuous employment for 5 years so I'm not sure how things would pan out for women who took a longer maternity leave etc...

1/3 of people who apply for the PR card are rejected atm.
That's 1 millions people overall. (Based on 3 millions of EU citizens)
Britain will look empty if it does apply that to the letter (because it's not just those people that will leave, it's the spouse, children etc etc)

Silent yes they're usually criminals but some are removed on the basis of not exercising treaty right rather than criminality itself.

If she reads the guidance notes properly she will find that she can satisfy the health insurance requirements by getting an EHIC from the Netherlands.

I didn't think you could get an EHIC once you'd emigrated. I questioned it as mine was only valid for 4 months. Was told this was because my right to it expired on the day I left.

God, I'm so scared about this :( I am not married (yet), and am a SAHM to my son, who has dual nationality Norwegian/British. My other half is British. I dread to think if I would be deported away from my family. I have been here for a while - I moved here 8 years ago, but lived back in Norway for 1,5 year in the middle of this time. I went to uni and paid my fees, have worked for a total of 5 months only, due to severe mental health issues + child care is too expensive. I have no idea what would be the best option for me. I cannot (for various reasons) go back to Norway. This whole situation sucks. I've no idea what I can do, or what will happen.

I don't see the problem with having to have private insurance if you don't work and contribute financially to the system of the country in which you live.

I lived in Germany for about 8 years from 2000 onwards and my dp had to prove that he could afford to support me financially and I had to prove that I'd taken out private health insurance.
I was told that if I worked for 12 months continuously I would then be eligible for cover under their 'nhs' system.

I believe that this is a fair way of doing it and if it applied in Germany then it should apply for those coming to live in the UK.

When we later moved to the UK my dp wasn't entitled to claim any benefits, including NHS and all healthcare, until he'd been working continuously for 12 months (same as it was in Germany for me). We had private insurance for that time.

I agree with this system and don't see the problem with it. I think it's fair and should be used to clamp down on health tourism.

In Germany we had to show our health insurance cards at every appointment/ hospital visit/dental appointment, etc before treatment was given. My dp's was provided by the government as he qualified for their 'nhs' and mine was my private insurance card, which was my proof of entitlement. I actually think that they should implement such a system in the UK.

"The government wanted to agree this with the EU in advance of negotiations but the EU refused. "

Or to put it another way, Theresa thought that Article 50 doesn't mean what it says.

But it does.

Negotiations start after you've given notice.

I voted remain.

I'm still angry we're leaving, but I'm more angry at the complete lack of certainty we're giving to UK residents who don't hold a British passport. It's completely unacceptable to say 'oh, it'll probably be fine, we'll sort out the details later.' These are people's lives we're talking about.

Legislation takes times to write and be voted through, but it would not take long to debate a number of common scenarios like the long-term resident EU spouse of a British person and commit in Parliament to writing law to support that. People need certainty. Can you imagine living with a giant question mark hanging over your head?

I know good people, good working people, who have left and/or who are in the process of packing up their lives to move. The UK was home to them. They don't feel like it's home anymore. It breaks my heart every time one of them cracks a self-deprecating joke about Brexit because they are the people who have been let down by this bloody stupid vote.

In essence, we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And I'm not convinced the bathwater was as dirty as it was made out to be.

I don't know if I'll ever stop being angry about Brexit.

I didn't think you could get an EHIC once you'd emigrated. I questioned it as mine was only valid for 4 months. Was told this was because my right to it expired on the day I left.

That's my understanding too. Clients I've worked with who aren't resident in the EU country of their nationality haven't been able to apply for it. Not sure if it varies from one EU country to another though.

I don't know if I'll ever stop being angry about Brexit.

I suspect anger is only going to grow over the next decades, and century. This will have a devastating impact on generations who had no chance to vote on it.

www.freemovement.org.uk/comprehensive-sickness-insurance-what-is-it-and-who-needs-it/
British citizens living in the EU have their medical costs re-imbursed by the NHS
the panic stirring of the Independent and guardian have plumbed new depths.

This is way more than a medical cost issue Mollie we're talking about peoples lives and families. I knew all along about the NHS reimbursing costs. Its the uncertainty people are facing

I'm worried about my mum. She's lived here for 46/7years (barring a couple of years over 40 yrs ago). She's an EEA citizen, and my dad's a biritsh citizen. She's never applied for British citizenship as it would mean renouncing her Norwegian citizenship. She has worked, but was a sahm for many years.
My parent's are asking me for advice, but I don't know what to do!

mollie, I've never had my insurance costs reimbursed, why should they? It was my decision to move abroad.

As I didn't work at all whilst living in Germany, I rightly had private health insurance for the entire time. The same rule should apply to everyone from abroad that lives in the UK without working too.

Once you work for an extended period of time, you're then covered by the country's own healthcare system. That's fair.

I don't see the problem with having to have private insurance if you don't work and contribute financially to the system of the country in which you live.

The problem is that people weren't aware of it. They were backed up in this lack of awareness by various institutions, and thus didn't structure their lives according to the law.

Those of us who've had any kind of dealings professionally with benefits matters for EEA nationals will know that the DWP and HMRC are both frequently awful at it. I have lost count of the number of people I've met who were given wrong advice from the JobCentre and were thus confused when I told them how things actually are. Understandably. EEA nationals who don't have private healthcare insurance and aren't qualified persons were still able to access the NHS with ease. This has meant that people in this position haven't realised they weren't legally residing and haven't acquired permanent residence. The law said one thing, custom and practice said another.

I don't necessarily disagree that the rule is unfair in itself, but what is unfair is the government not having bothered to apply it, then all of a sudden deciding to. And that is what has happened.

I'm in the same boat as a lot of people unfortunately. Been here 22 years, my husband is born and bred British. Ex army, fought for this country. My children are half English. I was a SAHM when my children were young and didn't even know about CSI. Never claimed a penny from the government. I have a part time job that i love, working with the future generation of this country, but doesn't give me enough hours to be considered "work" for the Home Office. It doesn't matter that I've done it for almost 3 years, so obviously the work is genuine. My husband and my children don't speak my mother tongue, and there is no life for me back home at all. So if I was told to leave, where should my family go then? I would not leave without my children, and my husband would never let his kids leave without him. So we would all have to go, which means the UK would loose a British citizen who has been in full time employment since he was 16 and for the past 20odd years has been a higher rate taxpayer. That is my one tiny glitter of hope. I might be naive to think it and it won't make any difference to the HO, but this is what's keeping me from breaking down in tears whenever I start thinking about this. Surely they wouldn't want to lose one of their own who has contributed so much to this country. After the referendum, my husband made a jokey comment about me having to leave the country (we have a lot of "inside" jokes that would seem odd to some people, but is second nature to us) which was overheard by my 7 year old. We then had days of tears and questioning from her and haven't mention Brexit around her since. My husband still feels guilty about letting her hear that comment. I just want the negotiations to start and get Brexit over and done with because the stress is killing me.