To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

Raccoonbandit explain why they exist. I think you know what I meant. Btw, I'm a woman who can't have kids. Does that exclude me from the ovary club?!?!

Morphene do you seriously believe that transactivists no platforming, silencing, getting fired from their jobs, anyone who does not toe the line of 'your body is wrong - change it' has nothing to do with the number of children who 'in my day' were allowed to peacefully grow up and grow out and in very many cases be happy gay and lesbian adults, now being transed? Do you think the immovable 'if you don't trans your kid you are a monster and your child will commit suicide' attitude that parents are faced with is unrelated to the explosion in the numbers of trans kids?

I agree with this, totally. Trans activists are doing everyone, apart from themselves, a disservice.

Ime the female spaces are precisely the places where sexism deprogramming works best which is why I am so strongly opposed to their destruction in the name of equality.

This, this, this!

I have empathy Jax I just refuse to accept humans can change sex and I refuse to be bullied, forced and railroaded in to accepting men in female only spaces and vice verser just because they feel like it.

It wouldn't bother me personally, I have boys and girls who have been brought up bathing together and seeing one another's bits so no big deal (do u have sons also op?)

• i doubt the girls at guides wouldn't already be aware of the situation with the trans child - it's not like like are all going to assume the child is a girl and then suddenly catch a sight of his male genitals and die of shock!

I think you need to work on trusting your DS more & the reasons behind why you think all boys are potential rapists. That's quite a heavy load for you to bare with 3 daughters

YABU

Archery, I don't know how you can assume they were perfectly ordinary teenage boys. That's quite an uninformed judgement to make. I'm also shocked at how you belittle their struggle as simply wanting to do something because they have been told no.

OP, I'm sure your concerns about your daughters missing out on female-only spaces is genuine, and not at all just a stick to beat children you believe are deviant with. However, It may comfort you to know that, growing up as they are in a more openminded and accepting society, they will not feel the lack, as they will increasingly come to see people as people, rather than as biologically determined tribes. Would you worry, if your daughters were white/black/asian, that they did not get to experience 'white/black/asian only spaces'? Because nowadays people tend to look a little askance on that kind of segregation. I imagine it will go the same way for sex/gender over time, and I don't see that as a bad thing - as a little girl, I hated the idea there was 'the world', and then special 'girl spaces' within that world where I would be 'safe'. I wanted to be safe in the WHOLE world, for it to belong to me. So I go out every day and try to make that happen. I go to 'men's' spaces and make them mine; I welcome men into 'girls' spaces, rather than try to isolate my sex in some sort of ghetto. And that's what I'll want for my daughter, once she's born. I suppose if one is more traditional, one might want something different for one's own girls.

Also, there is nothing in the world to stop you arranging trips and activities for your daughters and the daughters of other like-minded mothers who believe the most significant aspect of who their child associates with are their genitals. This is your right. You could even set up a local, national or international organisation of your own, with that as its founding principle. But the management of the Girl Guides have decided to evolve with the times and to be more open-minded (as have the Scouts, when they elected to accept girls and boys rather than just boys and the Woodcraft Folk, who have always accepted children of all sexes and gender identifications). And Guides is completely voluntary. You don't like how they are evolving? You do not have to use them. Find an organisation that accords with your principles.

You get some males and some females in each but you have grouped by interest and outlook in life....not by genitals....which SHOULD be totally irrelevant for 10 yo....

I really don't care what interests and outlooks in life the women I share bedrooms and showers with have. I only care that they are women and thus 100 times less likely to sexually assault me.

And yes, sex should not matter to 10 year olds, but in reality, I have seen boys who were all about boobs at age 7 or 8, ogling an early developed classmate and the like. And that was before internet porn.

women only space
trans women feel like women
ok, - cis women only space
women feel like cis women
ok - cis women who were born with a vagina only space
my cis woman girl dick is a vagina
ok - non-male space

All humans start out as female

WTF!?

No they don't!

From the moment of conception sex is set! If the sperm carries an x or y chromosome determines sex at that point

FFS if you want to put forward an argument done, but at least try and get the most basic facts right or you completely undermine any credibility your argument might have had!

Strong were you born female? Female genitals and female chromosomes? If so then you are a women. Your inability to have children does not define your sex.

I am guessing that the posters who are comfortable with this change, don't have girls in Guides

The Guiding membership have consistently voted to remain single-sex. And, I think the posters defending this change would struggle to articulate why the wishes of the membership (to safeguard a single sex, non-penised/non-male-socialised environment) should be ignored.

In a game of oppression top trumps, women are still more likely to be victims of DV, to earn less, to be directed away from STEM jobs, to miss promotions, etc, etc, etc. Guiding is one of the few places that actively challenges those inequalities and works to give girls, opportunities they would otherwise miss.Sadly, those inequalities are based on biology not identity. Otherwise, we'd all just identify out of those pesky bigotries and oppressions.

However, in practise, I think everyone in a pack would know if a transchild or a transwoman leader joined so the prerequisite for secrecy is redundant. I also think it would be quite an uncomfortable place for a transchild or transwoman because Guiding has always challenged gender stereotypes. They definitely don't subscribe to the 'I like pink so I must be a girl' theory which seems prevalent in trans discussions.

& the reasons behind why you think all boys are potential rapists.

Some boys are rapists/potential rapists, RockinHippy. #NotAllBoys, obviously, but enough that we should be able to protect girls. Don't believe me? Read this

I'm also shocked at how you belittle their struggle

I'm shocked at how little you, and others on this thread, seem to care about the needs, safety and privacy of girls, JaxingJump.

Let's assume I am terribly ignorant and transphobic.

Chromosomes and genitalia.are very boiolgy centric and small minded of.me. Boys can have vaginas, and girls can have penises.

How do you determine boy and girl?

Why do I need to explain why transsexuals exist? It's like asking me why gay people exists?
The fact they do does not matter to me what does matter is when 1 group of people start making demands of other groups and invading their private spaces while claiming the impossible.

lelapaletute, would your advocate for all spaces to be mixed sex? So, hospital wards, refuges, prisons and so on?

But I don't know how men feel. I don't know how any other human being feels. I just feel like me.

But my xx chromosomes make me a female. Nothing else.

There are a few ftm trans at DD's school. Not surprisingly they still hang around with the girls not the boys.

Also, there is nothing in the world to stop you arranging trips and activities for your daughters and the daughters of other like-minded mothers who believe the most significant aspect of who their child associates with are their genitals. This is your right. You could even set up a local, national or international organisation of your own, with that as its founding principle.

lelapaletute do you really not know that anytime anyone tries this, they are hounded and harrassed by trans activists, their funding targeted, death threats, social media hatebombing, physical picketing, and so on? Private women-only events that have operated happily for many years have closed down after targetted campaigns from trans activists, just for being women-only.

They definitely don't subscribe to the 'I like pink so I must be a girl' theory which seems prevalent in trans discussions

Absolutely. And I can see what else will happen. Girls will start talking about being girls, about boobs, periods and the like and (as has happened elsewhere) they will be told to be trans-friendly and inclusive (and silence themselves). As has happened elsewhere they will learn that to be properly inclusive they must refer to themselves as 'cis' and accept that identity is about 'the feels' and a predilection for stereotypical activities and behaviours (and erase themselves as authentic women). I've been in younger trans spaces and I can tell you that these things happen and, especially if a transgirl is present amongst girls it becomes all about them.

Aside from this, if an individual has a penis, no matter if they identify as male or as female, they have no place in women's sleeping or changing spaces. Full stop.

Also, there is nothing in the world to stop you arranging trips and activities for your daughters and the daughters of other like-minded mothers who believe the most significant aspect of who their child associates with are their genitals. This is your right. You could even set up a local, national or international organisation of your own, with that as its founding principle

We had one of these. It was called the Guides. We've done it already. Why should we do it again?

Rockin it's not about boys being potential rapists. (Read the OP - she's talking about a 10 year old ffs).

None of the arguments for the preservation of female only spaces are because we regard all men and boys as rapists (although the TAs would like you to believe that's why we think the way we do).

It's because boys and men have grown up with, from birth, the notion of male privilege. Women and girls are conditioned to accept male privilege at their expense. Even young boys, who feel they might be girls, will still exhibit that male privilege (and most will in fact NOT actually be trans at all).

In a mixed group, the male viewpoint dominates.

In an all male group the male viewpoint dominates.

In a female-plus-trans-women/girls group the trans person's needs will dominate.

Where is the space for our girls needs and viewpoints to the dominant ones? It used to be GGUK. Sadly is appears even that is in the process of being wiped out.

OP, it's attitudes like this that the trans community have to battle against all their lives, your shocking level of ignorance has made feel me feel quite sad. Do you have any idea what the trans girl and her parents have probably already been through, what they are going to go through in the future? You are quite happy to 'out' the child without any thought to what that might do her.

I don't think it's right to insist that any trans child is held responsible for sexual assaults by some men. Which is what you people who use the safety argument are ultimately doing. Just as we don't ban muslims from city centres because of the actions of extremists so that the locals can feel safe.

Girls do not need any more privacy from a trans girl than they need from any girl. Practically or psychologically. It's the parents that are teaching their kids otherwise.